Advertising’s Role in the Cultural Conversation With Elizabeth Paul
Brand-Side
Brand-Side

Episode · 10 months ago

Advertising’s Role in the Cultural Conversation With Elizabeth Paul

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Culture comes from the margins.

But, in advertising, creatives take that culture and put it front-and-center.

And whether that’s good or bad depends on how they join the cultural conversation.

My guest today is Elizabeth Paul, CSO at The Martin Agency, who joins the show to discuss how brands and agencies can become better stewards of popular culture.

We cover:

- The importance of mission and purpose to any organization

- How marketers can engage popular culture responsibly and elevate the diverse voices creating it

- How Elizabeth put this into action in a campaign for Old Navy

Find this interview and many more by subscribing to BRAND-SIDE on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or on our website.

Welcome to brand side, a new podcast by Celtra where we interview marketing creative operations and desire meters to find out what life is like in house, first agency side and how big creative ideas come to life at the world's best brands. This is brand side by Sultra hi. Everybody, welcome back on brand side. My name is Christine. I am the brand and COMMS director over at Celtra, the creative automation company. Today we are talking with the brilliant strategists on all things culture. Her name is Elizabeth Paul. If you work in the industry, you probably already have heard of her. She is currently the chief strategy officer over at the Martin Agency, previously at Mullin low, where she was actually one of the youngest CSOS in the industry, and she is being awarded with adages Cuso of the year this year. In Two thousand and twenty one. She was the campaign strategist of the year last year, and the list just goes on and on and on. Welcome Elizabeth. I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. So you are. This advertising powerhouse, three time j chid award winner and overall brilliant strategist. I want to dig into your career journey and and how you got started and how it got you to who you are today. Sure, I'll do my best. So, yeah, how did you get into advertising? A little bit serendipitis Lee, and I don't say that lately. I didn't know anyone in advertising and I didn't go to a school at the time that had a huge ad program there was marketing inside the business school and finally, my freshman dorm I went to James Madison University. The business school is next to my my freshman dorm, and I remember freshman year I had into there two major yet you're doing like general education. I remember looking at the business majors and being like those are not my people. They were like it was the college students who looked like they were dressing for their future internship at Mackenzie. Now that there's anything wrong with Mackenzie, but they all just looked like very serious and at least Sol...

...eighteen year old Elizabeth was like, I don't think that's my tribe, and so I studied really everything that I was interested in. I was kind of a nerd. I was not a huge partier and so I finished school with like two majors three miners, but I looked around and I studied communications and creative writing and I took classes in anthropology and all of that in retrospect sounds like perfect things to study if you want to be a brand strategist, and I didn't really have visibility into that at the time. So it was luck more than strategy. And then when I was graduating, I knew that I just needed a job. I graduated in May and my first student loan payment was due in June, and so I needed something. And when you don't have great clarity and what you're trying to be when you grow up, you don't exactly know where to apply, and so I applied for a bunch of paid internships. So weren't a lot of jobs the time. It was in a great job market and I got a paid internship at a PR agency that I did for the summer. I think I made two hundred dollars a week, and then I worked at Banana Republic Nights and weekends so that I could pay my rent and my car insurance and hope that would turn into a job and at the end of the summer I learned a ton. I had a great experience, but they just didn't have a job available, which sometimes happens, and so I took the only job I could find, which was a job as a speech writer. And so I was a speech writer for a year. But all of that had brought me to Richmond. I'm not from Richmond, Virginia, but my internship was, and so I stayed to be a speech writer and then, after I had done that for a year, a brand new had a business development at Martin named Christen Cavallo, who had just taken that job from being a strategist, needed a you know, like a new business coordinator who was going to help talk to consultants and write RFPS and probably run a few personal errands, from being honest, and I knew someone who was leaving the agency and the person was like your speech writer, this is going to be a lot of telling stories and writing in someone else's voice and I bet you could do that. And so I started in new business and then I kind of discovered strategy after that. But it's not lost on me that there was a lot of like luck and good fortune in that...

...because I didn't have the kind of traditional background that a lot of people coming into the industry do and in some ways my first couple of years in the industry I feel like I like somehow got a ticket to the wrong party. But once I got here I didn't want to leave. So like I didn't want to get bounced out. So I was like, I don't know how I got here, I don't really know if I'm smart enough to be here, but I certainly didn't have, you know, like a master topree in the brand center or you know, I hadn't been to a portfolio school, but I'm pretty curious and I'm I have a lot of hustle and so I figured I could work. I can outwork just about anyone. So I was like, I'm just gonna try to focus on humble, hungry and kind and work hard and learn as much as I can and and everything kind of went from there. I can really relate to that because, as a linguistics major, I stumbled into advertising by chance, going into TWA as an events coordinator because the people on the team were writing their masters so they needed an extra hand and I was there, you know, getting Burgers for the team fareweld parties and just just about doing everything in anything I could get my hands on, until I finally segued into copywriting. But that's a whole other story and I want to get more deep into yours. So, Martin Agencies, it's one of those agencies that I keep seeing on my linkedin feed in the in the context of winning new accounts left and right. Surely there's a culture and a philosophy behind the agency that makes it so attractive to brands and so so what are you guys all about? What do you believe in? Yeah, I love that question. I mean, I think one one thing that is a strength for us is that we have a clear positioning and a really clear sense of who we are and what we're trying to do in the world. So it's amazing how many agencies don't apply their their process to their own agency, like just taking a beat. You know, whether you come up with the foreign against statement or whether you, you know, mash up the five season put them in a blender and land on a provocation, whatever your strategic...

...process is, I highly recommend, like every agency in the industry, should just do that for themselves and and have the rigger of being like okay, well, what do we stand for and how do we run that through the line? We did that at Martin a few years ago and we landed. We do kind of a fore and against and we landed in this place as saying that we stand for cultural impact, because we believe that you have to impact culture to impact sales and and some of that was rooted in like this very old statement we found that the founders had written, like I don't know, the agency was founded long before this, but there's a statement that was written in the s and it says so many the effect of like we want to do work that our people are proud of, our clients prosper from and the people we know talk about and that idea of like talk value was actually kind of in the DNA of the company and we used always talk about the taxicab test. Mike Hues are, our late chief creative officer. For many, many years he would talk about how, like when he got in a taxicab and they were like, you know, what do you do? I advertising. Oh, anything I've heard of. There's a ton of stuff. It's advertising famous that most people in the taxicab are not going to have heard of, but if he's like, Oh, you know the get go on, guy go or you know, fill in the blank brand. Like we wanted to make things that like people on Main Street have heard of and talk about and get excited about. So that idea of cultural impact actually was rooted in our age and SE's like history and core beliefs. And then the against is often just as important as if they you stand for, because if there's no mistakes, that stand doesn't matter very much. And we said we want to fight in visibility because we saw the statistic that eighty four percent of ads are never seen. There's somewhere between actively avoided and passively ignored at which is like devastating when you think of like all the like blood, sweat and tears that go into and there's billions of dollars that go into advertising that is effectively invisible. And so we want to fight invisibility. And so that is come to mean a few things, like, one, we want to be in the sixteen percent, like we want to create things that people see and talk about. But also, for way too long our industry created cultural goods that made people feel invisible because they weren't seeing. They weren't represented. And so...

...all that is to say I think having like real mission clarity on like this is the thing that we're we feel called to do in the world, can be a strategic advantage because it helps us to decide what clients we pitch and when we're interviewing people we can get a sense of whether or not they're people who would be inspired by that mission. When we post job openings, they say want to fight, because that's kind of cord to our culture. And so there's some extent to which I think every agency every year, if you ask them what they're trying to do, they're going to be like make good work. When awards, when business, you know, get on the a list, we're all trying to do that. But having something deeper that you can rally everyone around, I really do think helps and it really shows. You know, when we first connected, it pain became very clear very fast to me that this conversation with you is going to be all about culture and the impact of that to advertising, but also about your personal approach to how you use culture and your work, and you stated that there is no mainstream but many streams. So I'm curious to learn about your take on culture and how it relates to brands and what your process around it is. Yeah, well, my father, I'll start with my definition of culture, which is not there's always like the wonky way we think about culture, where it's like the collection of, you know, cultural mores and and language and so on and so forth. All of that is true, right and correct. My favorite definition of culture is that cultures whatever is normal for a group of people, which is why I like you. You and your roommates might have a culture, you and your family might have a culture, you in your neighborhood might have a culture. Your team, your company, you know, your city, your country, your world, like many, many cultures, but specifically often in our industry. We talked about culture. We're talking about pop culture, and I think about pop culture, and really culture in general, as a river. And if you study culture, and again, this isn't just pop culture, if you study culture change, if you study social movements, etc. Culture always comes from the margins, and there's a few different reasons for that. One of them is an institutions don't disrupt themselves. When things are working. There become all of these cultural aughts and shoulds that keep...

...people doing things in the same way, in the same direction. When you're on the margins, it feels like there are fewer rules to break, right you're typically less resource and so you have to be scrappy and inventive. You may not know the rules, so it's easier to break them, or you're mashing other experiences and cultural perspectives and to create something new. And then what happens is that the margins bear witness to the center and throughout a lot of modern history the center has appropriated the margins. So we do this thing. We have a visibility brief and a visibility workshop is designed to kind of engineer better questions and to the process, and one of them I often say, is like there is no Gaga Without Grace Jones, there is no elvis without Chuck Berry, almost any cultural trends you can point to, certainly an American pop culture which is a disproportionate influence on global pop culture. A lot of that has been appropriative under represented communities, and so this thing of like culture starting on the margins and then being like hijacks and putting that in AAR quotes, because it's kind of a gross word, and reappropriated by the center now we live in a world where it's like, you know, I always say don't watch the throne, watch the edges. But then my question is like how do you invite those people into the center so that you can amplify their voices and so that you can, you know, continue a degree of creative control on those things? But I think that general journey from the edges to the center is always how culture forms, and so if we are going to be students of and creators of culture, then we should be looking in the right place and engaging with trends in the right way. And how do we do that? How can creatives and marketers become better students off culture? And then the second part of the question is how do you write that wave and that trend without appropriating margin less cultures, but celebrating them and also making sure that they benefit from that usage? Yeah, I mean, these are very complex questions that don't lend themselves well soundites, but I'll take a try. I mean I'll pull a couple pieces apart. I think there's the student of cultures piece, like the gift of having diverse agencies, and when I say diverse I mean I mean that in so many different ways, like racially,...

...ethnically, sis, economically, every every form of representation is that you're getting people with so many different like not only lived experiences but also passions and interests, and so one and one answer is like you is a strata. Just cannot possibly follow the long tail of every subculture on the Internet like you just can't. I'm sure we all have predictive analytics in our tools that will tell us they can, but if we're really going to be students of culture, like not just, you know, analyzing the Zeros and ones, but actually engaging and immersing, immersing, like you can't follow everything, but hopefully you are building a broad coalition as a team that are like into when they're into, and that's amazing. And hopefully you're inviting people in who are interested in all kinds of things and you're giving them space to share that and to bring that to work. So I actually think that it's important that our agencies be culturally rich places because from that, I think bubbles up some really like interesting understanding of like what's in the cultural waters. I think that's one. You know, I try to teach my team the disciplines of like when they see something trending, do a little bit of like Internet forensics, to try to take a few steps back and be like, but where did that come from? Like where before? Where you heard it from? Did it come from? Because I think you you can even look at like the dances trending on tick tock, and often the people who are made famous and rich and influential for some of those dances are probably not the ones who did the choreography. So I actually think to be good stewards of cultural goods. It just takes some rigor and discipline to be like great, you know that things trending. We all have so much time pressure to then be like great, what are we going to do with it and how? But the smartest, safest and most respectful thing you can do is to just take a beat and figure out where it came from and who it came from and understand what it has meant before now and how that meaning is developing and how, if they're if there is a community of origin, what was their context and what is their community like, and who do they listen to and hopefully, who's the creator? You can't always get back to patient zero of a cultural trend, but you can get into some of the earlier voices and then, I just think,...

...at the very least honor but at the best include I saw I was at a color a few years ago and I like it was such a poignant example, but I must kind of to give it just because I don't want to call it who did it, and I actually don't know who they are, but it was a panel of tech companies that were doing work that was celebrative of communities of color, and there was this beautiful, beautiful black role magic spot and it was emotional and it was honoring and it was, I mean, lovely, and it ended with black role magic and I kept waiting for like some not to Shun Thompson, who originated a Hashtag black room. Yeah, and there wasn't one and I was like Ha, and I'm like, okay, well, maybe you didn't jump in the TV spot, like maybe they did some stuff with her, and so, like I started like googling and I found some like frustrating tweets about the way that that Hashtag had been taken by these big brands and and you, since she had effectively been erased again, like making creators invisible by those brands for this like beautiful movement that she created. So again it's like, worstcase scenario, honor and name the person. You know. Best case scenario, include them, you know, ask them how can we serve that community or that movement? What would they want a brand's involvement to look like? And so, in general, I just think we have to be more thoughtful stewards in terms of how we engage with these things, so that, if we're going to participate in these cultural conversations, we can do it in a way that is redemptive and restorative. Yeah, especially now, where we live in this cycle of something happens in culture, News, pop culture, and the social media managers at brands and then also their respective agencies are like, how can we hop on and like four hours later there's already a deck and an idea and let's just be Nimble and fast and get it out. When you're in that cycle, you often forget that, you know, there might be a different story behind that STA this level trend. Yeah, and I think it depends on what it is. I mean. Yeah, yeah, time to build a deck for the idea. Than Good for you. I usually give her that. Like. I mean, this is like such a teeny tiny example, like some of these things are maybe lower stakes. Right. So, yesterday morning one of...

...the things in my feed were all these funny memes where people had seen Pete Davidson and Kim Kardashian holding Oh yeah, and they referred to it as Pete Davidson's New York. And, just like the Internet sometimes is a wonderful place, it was like it was so, so good, and so it's some of it is like Pete Davidson is like such a good sport about like kind of being like ragged on and pop culture. And so I called someone on our team and was like could we just do something fun with this, and she was like what if we did this thing where we were like what are your top fan five favorite songs about Pete Davidson's New York? And it was like welcome to Pete Davidson's New York by Taylor Swift, the only living boy, and in me David's New York like by side regard pup, like Stig medity's iconic New York side. Yeah, sending it out like in something like that. That idea. It's a silly little thing. It was five minutes from like idea to execution and I don't know that it needed like, you know, two hours and cultural exegesis. On, you know, Pete Davidson, it was like a pretty straightforward idea. But on a lot of these other things, you know, even if it is like a dance, and sometimes it is literally googling, where did that come from? Because typically some journalist or Internet sleuth or just frankly like you'll find a tweet the predates the tweet everyone's talking about. It doesn't have to take hours and hours. It's not full proof. I just think it's thoughtful, you know, and a good practice to be in. Yeah, and I think, especially with a lot of brands getting into the realm of social justice, off discussing these heavy societal topics that, you know, we're all in the midst off, especially in those cases like, for example, if I'm not wrong, me too, the me to movement and the Hashtag was started by a black woman and nobody talk nobody talked about it in the beginning and it was completely whitewashed. So so, yeah, definitely buy into your idea of doing your homework there. And on the notion of culture and let's and and advertising. Let's discuss...

...your recent work. So I would love to hear a little bit more about the old navy body quality campaign that you the recently launched. So let's dive into that. Yeah, that one is near and dear to my heart. I spend a lot of time on that account with those clients, with that team. So old navy is a brand that has has actually a strong element of access and inclusion built into its DNA. There were a few pieces of language. One of them was democracy of style. That like goes back to their founding in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four. This actually don't know this like Apocryphal Story. I think this is true. I haven't done my homework, but I'd heard a story that it was. Old Navy was founded by a couple of man and a woman of the each put in a dollar and it had pay equity since the first day the store opened. So there's a lot of like little things in the early days that you can really like trace through, even the fact that you know, this is kind of like pretty fast fashion. Fashion was largely like for people in big cities with big budgets. It was exclusive, it was self serious, it was adult and they they have always kind of taken down barriers and invite people, and so they took it from exorbitant to affordable, from pretentious to playful, from adults only too family friendly. That just has been part of their part of their story from the beginning. So there's an extent to which we're always asking the question on that brand. Who is not being included, who needs to be? Who can we invite in next? What needs to be democratized? Like it's genuinely built into the way the company works and operates and things, which is lovely, and that's from the CEO down, which I'm so grateful for. I mean a lot of great work. Always is incredible clients who are brave and have conviction, and so I'm really grateful for this one. But in that case, you know, there's this gap in the market where you know kind of standard. I'm putting that in air quotes. Can't say the air quotes on a podcast women clothing sizes or from like zero to fourteen. That's what you find in most stores. The average, again air quotes, American woman is a size eighteen. So like your average woman is not even in had zero to fourteen and actually I think almost seven and ten women are...

...are fourteen plus. So increasingly there's an element of like, who were those quotes for? Certainly for some, but perhaps not for many, and old maybe you know, was one of the early retailers that extended their sizes, had plus sizes. But like pretty much all of retail, the plus sizes weren't a limited number of styles and there was a limited number of sizes and they were to separate section in the store or they were mostly online, and a lot of retailers even the pricing would be slightly different for those items. And so there was a sense of like well, if you're the brand that democratizes style, if you're the brand that invites people in, I think they were asking themselves the question like are we doing right by this large subsegment of our audience? And so the idea of body quality came from that. And it was every size, every style, every store, all in one place. And and we were doing research when we're working on the campaign among women, like I remember one woman talked about the fact that she that she had never really been able to go shopping with her friends. Like growing up she would go shopping with her girl friends and they would go to stores they didn't have her size or stores where maybe they did, but they were in a separate part of the store, and how just like isolating that was. Not to have that common experience. And I'm certainly not a size to but but I'd never had that experience and I was like really humbled and like checked by my own blind spot in that space that there was this like large, overlooked audience that people weren't really designing for, let alone like acknowledging. And so you know the fact that old navy again, it wasn't just a campaign, it's a shift in the way they do business. You can now walk into any store in America and find the sizes zero two, I think it's thirty two, in one place, in one store, in every style at one price, and so that's that's one of the things we've done with them. But really across the board, everything we do with them is looking to kind of live into that ideal. And then when we made the work, you know in terms of like well, how do we tell that story, how do we launch that message we wanted to use? You know, you can see in the in the spot and in the campaign talent. You know,...

...a range of sizes and in body shapes and styles of dancers and of, you know, actors. But we also used eighty bryant, who's not someone who's like stumped for a lot of brand so we weren't sure if we're going to be able to get her. But one of the things we loved about her was just like her place in the body positivity conversation. And we were all the huge fans of shrill and how she's used her platform and s nol how she's used trill. So like really question the way society treats women and treats people based on size and the crazy things people say, and so we were really excited and just felt like she was kind of the perfect ambassador and in over the course of the launch spot you see this kind of transformation in her I don't know if you say her her character. Actually, I don't know how she thought about that. We're in the beginning she's like should I be dancing, and the middle she's like, Oh, we're dancing, and by the end she's like I'm a dancer now and it's like so fun. But you really do see like the beautiful transformation that people experience when they are truly invited and they are truly treated as though they belong. There's a freeingness and I always say that that brand is playfully progressive, like they actually push really, really hard on things that I think they should. They do it in this like really winsome, playful, kind of cheeky way, which I love. Now, when I saw the body quality campaign come out, I was I was applotting it just because, you know, from earlier on in my career we did something similar with a local, you know, small finish fast fashion brand, where we were able to not only have their them change their sizing to better fit the local market, but also actually feature women of all shapes and sizes. You know, before that even was a thing globally, and one of the proudest moments in my career was standing in the store and eavesdropping in on people talking about the Pos materials and the campaign ads within the store that featured women in bikinis of all shapes, ages and sizes, and hearing them say wow, I can finally see myself in these as.

I've never seen something like that before. So I was so excited to see this campaign at national level in in such a big market as the US, is so really love that one. I've got a couple more questions for you. Firstly, going into an unpopular industry opinion, what's something that everybody else seems to buy in but you fundamentally disagree with? Who? That's a really good question. Let me think about that. What is something that everyone buys into in our industry that I disagree with? So I don't know that I would say everyone, but I do think that there can be a prevailing, I'll say strand or conversation, way of thinking in the industry that is very much about integrating all the things we've learned and rolling them forwards that you can create advertising. That is right and I think that. And when I say right, you know I'm not anti data by any means. I think we should use data as fuel rather than exhaust but in this kind of culture of like hyper measurement, hyper optimization, best practices, benchmarks, so on and so forth, it is very easy to construct like a paint by number based on all of our aggregate learnings of what we think that people will like and respond to. And if we can just learn from it and dissect it, then we can just do it again and again and again and this. This might be unpopular opinion, but I think that is a fool's errand I think it is impossible, because it's not enough to be right. Right can be ignored, and there are, I would argue that eighty four percent of the ads that no one sees. A lot of them are paint by number, a lot of them end up following best practices and conventions. And human beings aren't logical creatures. Where actually pretty illogical creatures, and what we will respond to is not always scientific. And that doesn't mean that I think you should ignore science. I think we should be data informed, but I don't think that we should let data make the final decisions for us in every instance,...

...and I think having a healthy tension between those things can be really beneficial. Like how do we learn from really like the the treasure trove of interesting information we have about what people are responding to and talking about in real time and what they find motivating what they find ignorable? But how do you not let that take away wisdom and spontaneity and bravery and courage? Because we know we'll get to the end of the year and I was having lunch with them, Neil Williams who's the created director and Guy Go, and we were talking about the tag team spot. Scoop. There it is, and you know, I was asking him. I was like, at the beginning of the year, I feel like there's always at least one or two guy go spots a year. They all tend to be beloved, but there's often like one or two that's just like really hit and crossover in a really different way and I'm sometimes surprised by which ones they are. Right, like tag team, like I loved at the beginning of the year. If you told me that that one was going to do better than like Dj klled or some of the other ones, like what I have known that? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Would you what? I have guessed that clogger's was going to be like probably the most popular spot of last year, you know, over John Stay, most knitting? I don't probably not, I don't know. And so I was asking him, like he's been working on Gey Goo for a long time, like can you predict the hits? And he was like no, absolutely not. Like if you asked me the beginning of every year, and this is like that team has worked on that account for a long time, like we've been with Graiko for more than twenty five years. Martin and Geiko have grown up together since they were the government employees insurance company and we were the small shopping rich in the new winitor of that they hired to do their direct mail. Like we know each other very well. We know their business, they know ours and we work really well together. And even that team was like there is an element of surprise. So we can get a high hit rate of things that people will like and maybe they will love, but which one's going to be the JOG or not? There is just an air of of mystery in human behavior and human appetite that is ephemeral and I think it can be observed but I don't think it can be perfectly predicted. So maybe that would be my answer. I completely agree with you and...

I think that the past decade, you know, the two thousand and ten s, where all about the dominance of media and programmatic buying and add algorithms and and you know, media teams came back to us and said if you put the logo in the first five seconds, you're going to get a higher click through rate. And I feel like this decade now, with all the new privacy concerns and regulations and you're going to have less it's less of a wild west in terms of targeting reaching people. I think we're going to be going back to creative obviously, as a creative person, I say this because I also want this to become true, but I do feel like the you know, our industry works in cycles and the era of storytelling is kind of coming back. At least that's how I see it. I mean, I genuinely do not think of data or even programmatic is the enemy of creativity. I think there's maybe not been enough creative thinking applied to that space, but I try to reject the binary that it's like a profunnal storytelling versus, you know, lower funnel targeting. I actually think there's still a lot of like discovery and invention to be done on integrating those and like really fascinating ways that we just haven't dreamed up yet, and I think that you can be just as creative with that part of your medium mix as you can, you know, with a piece of set magic film or a brand action or an activation. So I don't necessarily see that as the enemy of creativity, but I do think that all creativity involves a degree of risk and I don't think risk has to be foolhardy, but I do think there is always some sort of a leap and I feel like there were so many years where clients a different agencies I worked at her with, you know, would say things like we want our opt outside or we want our you know, fill in the blank campaign they admired, and I would often go through and I would make a list of campaigns that I knew they admired and I would write like the risk and the reward, because afterwards it's easy to pray, to praise bravery on the back end without thinking deeply about the risk on the front end. Like...

I'm sure there was a conversation in a room somewhere before opt outside where somebody was like, isn't hypocritical of a retailer who sells stuff to reel against consumerism, like we are consumer goods company, and is it wise to close on our most profitable day of the year because we don't really think that people aren't going to shot? They're probably just going to spend somewhere else. Like there was risk involved and someone had to take that risk in order to get the campaign that everybody, like the clients, asked for for a decade, and I think you can look at everything. You can look at like a girl, and I'm sure there are people that were like, is this too negative? You know, like, what about the people who say like a girl in a good way? And you know, like you can always talk yourself out of something that feels scary. But I have never seen something amazing that did not have an element of bravery that was required to say yes, and so I think that's something we can all lean into. Yeah, lesson learn. If you feel scared about executing on an idea, you probably should go full force with it, unless it's something really stupid. What side like, wasn't it? Voltaire has said the only way to avoid criticism is to say nothing, do nothing, be nothing. I think there's a lot of people tempted to organize around creating things that won't be criticized. But the challenges if you do something that is, you know, unobtrusive, it will also probably be uninteresting. There's no attention without tension, and so tension doesn't always have to be controversy. But if there's no teeth, if there's no interest, if there's no stakes, you're probably going to end up in the eighty four percent of ads to people don't see, and you don't want to be there. Elizabeth, thank you so much for being on the show. If people want to connect with you, where can they find you? Probably on Linkedin. I will tell you that I am not not a voracious linked dinner so if I do not answer you for days or weeks, it is not personal, but I will check and get back to you eventually, I promise. Thank you so much and thank you for listening to the show. If you like what you heard, maybe give us those five stars. We always appreciate a review and you will hear from us in the next episode. You've been listening to brand side. If you like what you heard, subscribe to the...

...show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about creative production automation, is IT SULTRACOM? Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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