Brand Translators: Bringing Ideas to Life with RXM Creative
Brand-Side
Brand-Side

Episode 29 · 3 months ago

Brand Translators: Bringing Ideas to Life with RXM Creative

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Boutique creative agencies have a distinct advantage in giving their clients cutting-edge, innovative, and top tier campaigns.

Join us as we chat with Raul Mandru, Founder of RXM Creative, and hear the backstories on some of their most fascinating campaigns and brand work.

In the world of RXM, creatives come together organically and with purpose to craft compelling, memorable work where PR-factor is already built in the strategy and the idea.

We discuss:

  • What you get from a boutique agency vs. the big guys
  • How studying the product, the founders, and the history of a brand helps create great work
  • The metaverse and NFTs as good experimentation for artists and the arts

Welcome to brand side, a new podcast by Seltra where we interview marketing creative operations and design leaders to find out what life is like in house, first agency side and how big creative ideas come to life at the world's best brands. This is brand side by Sultra. Welcome back to brandside. My name is Christine, and today I have a dear friend, Raoul Mondrew, who is the founder of the creative agency rxem creative, which is a Boutique Agency here in New York City with clients like Amika, HM, Tabasco and and many more. I'm so happy to have you on the show. It's always great to have a conversation with a friend. How are you doing? Sup're happy to be here, Christine, and so excited about this. It's the first time on the PODCAST, so, like I'm, I'm really excited. Wow, I am. I'm honored to be your first podcast. Absolutely I think everything will go wrong and then we will correct it from there. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm sure everything will go just right because you have a lot of really great insights and stories to tell, both from your career and also the agency that you found it. But so you went from working as a creative at these big holding companies, both in Germany and then later in the US as well, to founding ARCS M, a little bit accidentally, as I gather. So talk to me about your career journey from from the start to the US and eventually becoming an entrepreneur in the space. Yeah, so I was working for Ogviddusseldorf in my second year of college. I studied the design and communication design in in Dorklund. So I was I was an intern there and I, you know, saw a lot of great campaigns coming together. One of them was the dove real beauty, the the originally nitial one, which was done at a Douseldorf and also in London, which was fantastic to watch. I didn't work directly on that, but they were, they were crafting it then. So it was very interesting as an intern to watch that. And then couple of years later they hired me and we won the first gold lion with with a campaign, and then I felt I had some some leverage after graduating and also winning the kN line, and I asked my bosses to to send me for one year to New York. I was really excited about the team that ogal The New York brought in at that time and yeah, I had a visa. I had, you know, everything set up. Thank you so much everybody that helped out. And in a couple of years, in a couple of months, I had my visa. So I started Ogal The New York and then things just like unfolded. I met a lot of great mentors, a lot of great people there and yeah, I work for two years at Ogal, then New York, and then I started working with my current business partner and friend, me high. But there all at three hundred and sixty I and that was also thanks to meet me out your Gil, who is down the chief creative officer of publicist melane. So we were just really good friends with making and me high,...

...and we just started, you know, just like riffing off ideas, thinking about interesting things to do, and we just came up with this idea, like side idea, side side Gig in a way, like instagram menu, which was a campaign for some friends of ours were opening a restaurant in the so home. So what we did we added the Commodo Menu Hashtag on their real menu so people can actually order from instagram pictures and this was in the early days of instagram. It was when instagram got bought by facebook for I think a billion or something like. It was all over the news and people really excited. They were still posting pictures of food and it was like, I think, two thousand and thirteen, something like that, and the campaign was really successful. Of the restaurant got a lot of press. I think they're the ACTIV stations next day in their in the restaurant to ask them the about their story was really interesting and we submitted that campaign to con on our own, without any agency approval or anything like that. We just added the name Bra wil x me hi x mignia. We submitted that that campaign on our own just for fun and you want car line and Mobile, and from there it got us also a lot of exposure and a friend of our Sonia Salvador, who became the Ray Bend and Sang Glass Ad Brand Manager for for digito, she asked us if we would like to do a compaign for them, so we just, you know, started working on that campaign. That was also successful and that was still like when we were as full time employed. I can say this right now and you know it was. It was great I love how you can just open a company in about ten minutes in New York, you in the US, you just, you know, get an number, you get a bank account and, you know, if you have a client, you have an agency. So that's how we started and that's why it's called our extent, because we're just like, let's they just put like a name on there, because the you know, they need they need to pay as they need this this bank account tomorrow. So yeah, so we just grew from that. We started working with Sung less at the RABUND for a while and then it just extended to to a lot of other clients and opportunities and eventually we we quit our jobs and we dedicated ourselves fully for, for our extent, creative. Yeah, so it seems that our exent you have this ability of being very scrappy and creating a big impact with small resources that you have, and I just wanted to know what's your secret sauce? We don't say scrappy, I think I think we're like to be. We like to say we're very tidy and we're very efficient, but not on scrappy budgets. I think. I think you know, we love the fact that you know, you have a lot of freedom to do everything from from strategy to creative and to talk directly to the clients. But we also saw a lot of you know, we learned a lot of great craft,...

...let's say, in big agencies. We learned, you know, how to how to read a brief, like how how you know really big compaigns are being done and so on. But we also saw a lot of inefficiency, and in bigger agencies. And that's okay, you know, you have twenty teams, everything is global. Things have to have to happen overnight. You know, sometimes people are not seeing it's just the nature of a bigger place. And we saw that in efficiency and we saw that, you know, people are just hanging out that two am playing ping pong while waiting for some feedback from easyd that just landed in Singapore and he's not currently available. So like they're just waiting. So everybody's waiting. So we never really I mean you make a lot of friends while waiting and complaining about it, but we never actually like that kind of like inefficiency of things. So we said, okay, how can we how can we become more efficient and, you know, use resources that we have and make really good partnerships with founder led companies and media and in production that are like ours and not have all this overhead on staff on full time, like how can we partner with make a little network of companies that we can, you know, work, we're together efficiently, you know, bring idea, the ideas to life. So, yeah, I mean if efficiency is always was one of our main things, like how can we make things a little bit faster, a little bit cheaper and also much better for the client when there's so much more direct communication? You know, I think resourcefulness is maybe the right word there. And you so, you so you have this like you have this way of having a network of talented people, talented partners, that you then kind of curate and brings together depending on the project, right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so right now, out the core team of our exam creative is, you know, Andrea is our our director and super designer. It's me high and I. We're doing the creative and strategy. We have project manager, producer operation, and that's pretty much it. Like it's a very tie team at the core and where the client facing and where we're like, you know, the architects of the campaign and then once the campaign is sold, once we you know, we have that green light, then we have really close partners in production, in media and and NPR. That I wanted to say, that help us bring it to life. And we've done this process a couple of times and it's working really well, you know. Yeah, and I also think that the plus about working with you, you guys, and I can attest to that because I was a client of yours at my previous company, is is really that you get the pitch team, so to speak, like the yeah, all who first come with the ideas actually are the ones writing every single line, designing every single pixel. So that's a big place compared to maybe working with the bigger guys, and that's what that's what we...

...were when we started in New York with me high together and obviously other other people. We were always put on pitches. We were the pitch team, and that's also something that we saw like okay, here's a pitch team. Everything goes well, the pitches being one, but then you are put on another pitch. So like what we do right now at our exam is like you you get the pitch team. Things go well, presentation looks Super Crisp. Clients get excited, everybody gets excited in the in the room and then but then we also get to work on your on your campaign. So that's that's Super Fun and I think we also love to to build those relationships with their clients and sometimes we just love to to go out and meet them see the factory or see the CEO's like who was the visionary? Who was who was the person that came up with this conditioner? who was the person who build this space? who was the person who who did this? We want to meet that person and we have that luxury now. Like to actually go and sit down and have an interview with them like a like a coffee or something, and see what was the vision behind in it then, and I love that you mentioned that. I recently completed the brand management course by mark writs and it's a marketing week meeting NBA Module, and one of the things that stuck to me in that program was that he told so many stories of when he goes into working with brands and starts creating the brand strategy, one of the first things that he does is he wants to delve into the history of the company. He wants to meet the founders. He wants to talk to them, he wants to understand the actual soul and story of the brand and and I guess that's also something that makes you guys successful as well as creatives and as an agency. Sometimes. Yeah, yeah, I think. I think what we love is is listening and and seeing where that story, where that vision for a product came from. And one of the examples of that I have on hand right now is is a lot of piano. It's like Italian cashmere, initially brand, which is as much bigger now. Got bought a bell five, six years ago by Lvm Age and there we actually had a direct line to Vittoria a lot of piano, who's the daughter of the founder. So there's a daughter of said you a Lott of piano who, you know, found that the brand. It's a family brand but, you know, like it's it's been a couple generations. But said you a lot of piano was really important figure. So we actually talked to her. Me Hi did an interview with her for about two hours and we just wanted to understand, you know, what was the vision, what was the what was the essence of the brand? Is just interesting personally. For us, it's not like we need to put a brief together anything. It's just like super interesting and that's why we do this, because it's almost like being a journalist. You just go in and find out so many things about brand brands and we see our job is almost like a translator. It's like somebody had...

...a vision for that, because this product exists in it cells. We just need to translate that in an Instagram Post, in a super bowl spot, in you know, like in a pop up shop or something. So I think it's just that job we did. Don't need to create an idea from scratch. Is just about how do we translate that? What's the best word, if you want, what's the best manifestation visually of that idea? So that's what we see ourselves doing and we love to hang out and just like have a coffee with with whoever that visionary was. And you know, most of the ideas come from there. And one of the campaigns that you can see in our website is the practical guide to summer and practical guide for winter, because we discovered that a lot of Piana is actually, besides being like a luxury fashion brand Italy, like fantastic brand. It's actually a very practical brand. Every product was made for a specific utility. So we love that about it and we just did a campaigner around that and you you know, it was successful and we had a lot of fun doing it, which is the most important continuing on your collaboration with brands and marketing organizations, you've mentioned how the lines of external agencies such as yourself and then inhouse agencies is blurring. Talk to me a little bit how that manifests in the work that you do with your clients today. So I think you don't have that classic model where you know the the agency is required to do a specific thing, and I think clients have creative teams in house, they have strategy in house, they have design, all kinds of real resources, and that's great because that just makes the the brand itself be more efficient and most of a lot of times we're being asked to come up with three hundred sixty campaign idea from scratch, like hey, here's our problem again. We do go talk to the visionary, like what was the thing? Like what? Why is this product existing? And then we do everything a to Z, including production and media and a lot of stuff so, but sometimes they have the brands have their own creative teams and they have their own designers or they have a producer, and that's okay, we don't need to do all of that. And they come to us to give them a fresh idea, fresh new perspective on this product or on awareness campaign, to give them more point of view. That's from the outside and that maybe because everybody in the team has been too long in those meetings where there were so many nose. They want an opinion from the outside, which is always good. So sometimes they bring us in and then we come up with with a big idea, we collaborate with the internal team and then they just take it from there. For us, this thing was always about accountability, like if you, if you bring this and then we're all in the same boat and we're all responsible and if we do it a to Z we we is not because our ego. Maybe that too, but it's because of accountability. Like, at the end of the day,...

...somebody looks at this and was like who did this? You know? So like you want to say, yeah, it was our excent creative or it was the the inhouse team. So you it's accountability. At the end of the day. But yeah, the lines are blurred and we're open to work. We worked in a lot of different formats and we're open to to collaborate with inhouse teams. I think there's some there's some great people, creatives that actually have a lot of agency background that are working in house. Yeah, absolutely. And then one thing that's pretty remarkable if you as a boutique agencies that you're very smart with PR and you seem to be in the news a lot for a smaller agency. And so, speaking of generating PR storms, can you talk about the not another second project that is lifting stories from the LGBTQ plus community, specifically the senior members. It generated two point six billion media impressions and twenty four million in add value. So what's the project all about and how did it come to life? Yeah, those those a very interesting project and the client water mark is a senior living community. They have like fifty senior living communities and they were just opening one in Brooklyn Heights. And what's fascinating about David Freshwater and David Barnes for the CEO's is that they never get senior leaving specialist to work on their projects in a way, like when it comes to architects, into year designers, and they wanted to try that with marketing as well. So they came to us and we were like, I mean we were super surprised to have a senior living company wanted to work with us and we said, well, that's such an interesting territory, like we don't even know. I mean, we know how to do jen Z millennial instagram stuff, but how do you do senior living? And we actually they wanted the point of roof from us and we wrote the Manella and said like, first of all, senior living retirement is super unsexy, like you cannot say this, it's just like the way you do your marketing right now. And that's was the first line. It's not sexy. We have to look at it in a different way and our job with watermark was to find those interesting stories that you know the brand was doing, and one of these stories was that we found it in a press release. I mean we look through all their press releases and we like to dig deep into everything that the brand does. And one of the reason press releases was about a collaboration with sage, which is an organization here in New York it's an NGO around senior Lgbtq plus members and they did a collaboration where sage was coming in and providing staff training for LGBTQ seniors. And because one into seniors that are LGBTQ,...

...they get discriminated when it comes to senior housing. So if you show up with your partner and you're looking for housing, you look around, you might get discriminated in the US, like you might. They're like fifty chances that for some reason, bureaucratic whatever, like you won't get that place, and that is not okay. And water mark was the first senior living community that actually got the accreditation from sage and we thought that, well, that's like an amazing story. That's super big and we need to develop on that. Like who are the residents? Who are the people behind it? What are their stories? Can we get maybe some early LGBTQ plus, you know, pioneers that were at stonewall and to talk about this? What was it like like? I saw a lot of even now with pride starting, you see a lot of young people, you know, being on a parade, you feel such like a youth culture, but what about the seniors that are part of the community that were, you know, having much, much rougher times in the S, that were raided. I mean there were raids and even in New York City in bars and so on, where the police brutality was, you know, insane when it came to to Gebid plus members. So like it was. It was a very interesting story. So what we decided to do is to take this stories of coming out at a later age of what it was like, you know, in the S, and to take that and to make it a campaign and put it actually in an exhibit form. So we created an exhibition at the Brooklyn Heights, you know building of water market. They were just opening it. So we created an exhibit there and now the exhibit is traveling. I think it's in La Right now, so you can check it out on another not a secondcom. That's the name of the campaign. And yeah, IT'S T traveling to La and after that, I think in fall it's going to be in Napa Valley and it's just like a nationwide exhibit. At is a traveling yeah, I love how you were able to like connect that what the company in the brand was doing with this story. That brings so true to the Lgbtq community really was a beautiful campaign, a beautiful storytelling. Yeah, thank you. And you asked about the press on this. Yeah, I mean getting press. It's very or media press is always like our number one goal, like when we work on a brief or any client, we camp up what that will look like, invoked, what that would look like in New York Times, and we start the presentation with that, because that's the ultimate test, you know, to see if that idea actually has legs and if you if it's big enough to be to be picked up by the New York Times. And for us right now is like there's no campaign that that we put out that doesn't have...

...a lot of you know, like pre campaign work when it comes to PR, so we get a PR partner very early on in the in the game. We show them the ideas and in the case of another another second way, work with did OPR, who was recommended to us by young hero Nick and Roberto who work with them for the Museum of Plastic, very inspiring campaign as well. So they recommended them to us and we work with we did a PR I think they're in Indianapolis and Indiana. We work with one as step on neck there and they did a great job on on taking the idea and taking the the you know, all the materials that we gave them and to work with their context and the relationships to bring those ideas to life. And for us, you know, it's always the wish list when you work with a PR agency. Is Like, Oh, was the wishes like? What do you want this to be? What you wanted to be picked up? And obviously New York Times is, it is on top of the list and everybody rolls, rolls their eyes. And on this one it was like it was in the New York Times, it was in the Guardian, it was in the New Yorker, and there's a different there's a different type of nervousness when you get that email and it is like you guys have an interview with the New York Times at two o'clock, because that that reporter, like they would rethrow the bullshit, like it's like they're going straight to like what actual truth is about this? What's the intention of it? Like what you guys had in mind? And they're interviewing everybody, so like it's not a lot of interview. You have to be really true. When you get that kind of opportunity. So so, yeah, we love that. It's a true campaign and exhibit and we love that. You know, we actually it actually opened in the middle of Covid, before the vaccine. So we decided we worked about a year on it and then covid hit and we decided that the perfect month to open it was in January, twenty twenty one, hmm right, so, right right after, because there's nothing happening in January and it was pretty impossible to do an exhibit before the vaccines were available in senior living community. So that was super challenging. But we we had fantastic partners and in as new be from the watermark side and nascent art, who organized the actual exhibit, the the printing and everything, like the fantastic job on that. So yes, we're like a team of maybe a handful of people, but that's credits on not on other second we're about a hundred people. So like it was just amazing to put everybody together like that. Yeah, yeah, I really great project. There's a there's another campaign that I also want to talk about. It's a very recent one that she did for the Haircare Brand Amika, and you had a very inclusive cast of models, which I really loved, and you really, I think, nail out that balance...

...with with including people of like different not just different races, but also, you know, different ability ages. Talk to me a little bit about love all your hair days campaign. Yes, I mean like Amika, hi, everyone of the make up. We love you guys, like it's just one of those clients that we love to work with. Teaching when everyone from the team. Their headquarters are in Bushwick. Actually, they have a beautiful office in Bushwick and it's in Brooklyn. It's a founder let company and it's a I think they have so many products in terms of different types of hair needs. I think they have a collection of about ten products and under each collection there's something for a very specific type of hair. So they don't just make like a hero product and try to sell that they had. They really do a lot of interviews, they do a lot of, you know, explorations to see like what, what is something that we can come up with that solves every hair problem, and we love that. In the brief and it was not just about, you know, every brand nowadays. Obviously, once inclusion and diversity and that's that's a must, because you know, you know, they have to, but like for I'm Ekay, it was like in the brand team, but also in their product truth that we went to find. There was a lot of thought when it comes to it's really for every everyone in terms of like every hair type needs right and we love that about it, and we were looking for, you know, of some some campaign idea that, you know, found that kind of like inclusivity and you know, it's it for everybody, but it's actually just specific for every specific hair type. So we came up with love all your hair day is, because you have bad hair days and you have good day hair days. So what are all those hairs in between, hair days, in between, like what? What are all those hair days that that, you know, we just have to embrace, like whatever, whatever it is, will just, you know, take it one one day at a time. And in terms of in terms of casting, you know, we you know, speaking of all generations. When another second we wanted to have. We had the Green Lady of Brooklyn, who is a you know, like Internet celebrity now, and we had briefe Kalaise, who's a model and disability advocate. We had like a fantastic cast and it was just like such a pleasure to work with everyone on that. And and the way we went about this campaign was, let's get like we had like a fantastic producer, which is Maria Sutherland, who is in touch with Nisius Sodo, who's a director and photographer. So we...

...love to have like an organic team of people that start with like, you know, a photographer that has a very interesting group of friends that, you know, Anisia, brought her cast engage on on board and, you know, we had everybody like working in a very organic way with friends and roommates, and it was just like super fun on set because everybody was feeling very comfortable with each other. So we love to work in that organic way where we don't have to put a team together because they have the strongest portfolio, but we believe in one person and we believe that they can come up, they can bring on set like all this fantastic and super talented people, and you can see that the campaign creatives, like from copy to our direction, are just fantastic. will be linking the ARCS and side and socials on this on the episode notes as well. So if you're listening to this now, I recommend you click on it and go see the campaigns as well, because if there's only so much we can describe with words. Yeah, I would love to shift to industry opinions. A lot of talk about the matter verse, also on this podcast. What do you think it means for brand marketing? I think it's a super exciting time and I think it gets it gets so many opinions, but I think it's very exciting to just experiment with it and to treat it like it was. Hey, did you make a website that says hello world in two thousand? Did you experiment with html? Did you make Yahoo Account in two thousand and one? Like you use netscape? I think it's a little bit like that. It's like downloading an MP three on napster in two thousand. So I think it's a little bit like, let's just play with it, let's let's say fun, let's see what comes out of it. Ledges, let's not destroy it, let's not try to become billionaires out of it. It's just super exciting to play with it and to have your own opinion about it, because it might not be in a few years what it is now. I love the idea of reward like artist royalties. I think that's that's a fantastic idea that if in the real art world right now the artist is splitting fifty the revenue with the gallery and then in the secondary market the artist doesn't get anything. So if your art after that sells for a million, if you're real painting cells for a million, you don't get anything out of that. Of course your value of your future work goes up. But I think in the matter vers and FT world it's really exciting how every time that gets sold you get royalties. But I think a lot of people get so hung up on the money part of it, on the connect your wallet first and then the experimentation then the fun part of it, that everybody gets into it just to make a quick buck and I think that that just stends in a way of experimentation and, you know,...

...playing with it and see where it can go. It's it's not going to be everything, it's going to be a part of it, but it's very exciting to see how how there's so much exciting about it. Yeah, yeah, my half of my family is actually in in the circus world and their their performance performance and their artists and I just heard that one of my cousin's actually purchased a plot on one of the Meta verses, the exact name Escasey, but he's planning on building and experiential venue for doing circus shows in the metaphors and I thought, Oh my God, if this reach is the one of the most conservative industries there is, it's definitely going to be here for to say yeah, Awesome, why not? Yeah, yeah, I think there's also a room for a lot of parody right now in marketing around the Meta vers. Like my my friend may now going to good publicist it. A lady just launched a campaign for Heineken right now where it was all about grabbing the Meta vers beer and all the avatars were disappointed that they couldn't quite grab it and you can't quite drink it, and I think there's room for that as well. To that. Yeah, that kind of kind of conversation, because at the end of the day you have to get out physically and we're humans and flesh and bones and you have that part of it where you have to be grounded. But it's super fine. What if it's raining outside? You just want to hang out in the matter vers and that's okay. You hang out up your plant of land and you can, you know, sunny in the matter verse, a Sun in the matter verse. Of course. Yeah, you got have to fa I think it's a lot about having fun and, you know, leaving the the money comes after. Always like that was also for us. Always like it's let's experiment and everything will fall into place. Speaking of experimenting, are you working on any projects that involve or are centered around and if te's I'm working personally, I love the the experimentation of it and I love to to experiment with digital art personally, and I think the more experiments are out there, the more brands are going to going to like love, you know what what people are doing and they're going to incorporate that in in campaigns or in exhibits and I think, you know, it's just really, really cool to see how everybody's experimenting with it. Yeah, your your sent a son, Felix, is a fantastic painter. Maybe he should consider and it meanting some of his work. Absolutely, he participated yesterday into client calls and gave his opinions his chief strategy officer. For sure he'll be joining the podcast on the next episode. For sure. Absolutely. If you hear him in the background, that's him. Yeah, yeah, we'll be discussing the future of cartoons, I guess. So. I've got one more question on the industry. Is there an advertising fat or a trend that you think or you wish would go away already? Um, I mean advertising has always trends and that's great because it makes things a less boring...

...and I think trends are fine for a reason and some some people say like, Oh, let's do timeless stuff, but sometimes it's okay to do to do trendy stuff. I think you know, given the compaigns that we've done recently. I think inclusivity and diversity is not just like a trend and it doesn't just become just something where you just put beautiful, diverse people in your ads, because that's something that you need to do like a I think inclusivity starts with who is in the brand team, who is in the agency, who are the creators? And I think once you were going to have that inclusivity more on in the people that create the ads, the art, the NFDS, you're going to see a lot more representation, also among ages, right because it's so, so important to to get for example, you know someone that is over sixty, sixty five, in their sevent S, in a in an ad because or in a project, because that's a very interesting generation and they have so many stories to tell and you know they can't be forgotten. They can be just, you know, retired, you know, which means, like you, you pull them out of service right. So like it. I think it's very interesting to tell those stories with age diversity as well and include age diversity, because there there's a lot of wisdom and fun and playfulness coming out of that. MMM. You know, I agree. Diversity and inclusion is definitely something that needs to be the makeup of the work that we do in advertising and marketing and not just something that everybody's requiring it for the next fifteen minutes. Let's go for it. For me personally, right now, one of the facts that I wish would kind of go away is with award shows. I would love to see more Juri's award work that actually drives business outcome and is a Ligne with the a whole company success. I think Burger King is a great example of that. Right like we, we have celebrated the great ideas that have come out of that brand for years, but unfortunately their business wasn't really following what the advertising was showing. So I'm wishing, I'm hoping, especially at this year's lions, that we're seeing a little bit more of that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean the lines are our Olympics, right and the way we want to see it is, I mean the gold conline propelled our career and you know, you're just like amazing and how it all started, and I think it's a school of thought. I mean it's the prototype, it's the is the Michelin Star Kitchen where all that prototype fun, you know, very mysterious stuff happens. That is a very magical and I think that's school of thought and sometimes in business that school of thought doesn't doesn't work necessarily, but the ideas, the inspiration always will come from there. So I think, you know, there's there's a lot of room for for listening to to what brands actually needs and sometimes,...

...as a creative you always want to win a con line but it's not what the brand needs right now for them, so you just have to wait and try. But, like I think it's a lot about listening what what the brands actually need and the ideas that are probably even better than a con line that are probably getting getting you a real result out there in the world that's solving a real problem. Is is sometimes more rewarding and I think it comes with deep listening and really talking to the visionaries behind the brands. Yeah, and I think that's exactly what makes you and your agency successful route. Thank you so much for joining. If people want to work with you or follow our exam where they can, where can they find you? Yeah, sure, you can check out our website or exm are Xm creativecom, our exam creativecom or follow us on instagram. All the all the dating and new business comes from a DM message at the end of the day. And if you enjoyed this episode of brand side, maybe shared with your colleagues, drop it in your company slack. We're always welcoming new listeners in and if you like what you heard, I always appreciate a review, maybe five stars if you're feeling generous. Until next time, my name is Christine and you've been listening to the brand side. You've been listening to brand side. If you like what you heard, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about creative production automation, visit Cultracom thanks for listening, until next time.

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