Bringing the World into the Inclusion Age with Travis Montaque

Episode 33 · 1 month ago

Bringing the World into the Inclusion Age with Travis Montaque


How can meaningful inclusion make a measurable difference and create lasting importance? In media and technology this is as important as ever and driving economic inclusion for creators is the key to real success for the industry. The move to conducting business equitably is a progessive cycle and generates continuous re-investment in underrepresented communities.

This is exactly the life and work that Travis Montaque, CEO and founder of Holler and Group Black, is leading. He grew Group Black, a media collective,from 8 to over 200 companies in the first year alone. He lays out the how and why for us on the show this week.

We discuss:

  • Black entrepreneurship: why creators are key to successful inclusion and where investors should be putting their dollars
  • Being truly inclusive is just smart: what do the recent blockbusters in media- Encanto, Squid Games, Black Panther- tell us about economic success?
  • How companies can meaningfully invest in inclusion and diversity that also spurs more wealth for communities- access, opportunities and infrastructure

We're listening to brand side, a podcast where creative and marketing leaders discussed topics like storytelling, brand marketing and creative work. Join the world's best brandson agencies for insights that help you stay creative at scale. This is brand side by the creative automation company Celtra. Welcome back to brand's side. My name is Christine, and today we have a guest that I saw speaking can and I thought to myself, I just have to have this person on the show. Um, Travis Montacue is the CEO and founder of Holler, which is a message and technology company, but also the CEO and Co founder of group Black, the home for black owned media properties. Will be discussing all about that today. Travis has been recognized in so many different outlets and awards that we probably could make a show of its own just for all of these accomplishments, but I'm gonna name a few. So Travis has been recognized in Forbes, thirty under thirty, entrepreneur magazines, most daring entrepreneurs, CSG, next gent ten and has led Hollard to place on fast companies most innovative companies list. That's quite a roster there, UM, Travis, welcome to the show. How are you today, Christine? Thank you for having me so excited to speak to you about everything you're doing in the realm of Um advancing black owned media and black creators and and and all that that you're doing in the space. But before we go into that, you are an entrepreneur and I want to learn a little bit about the path that you've taken and Um, as I believe and what I've read about you, it's all rooted in this vision that you have to advance and empower the black community and I would love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah, well, I think even goes a step further than that, which is philosophically. When I started, as when I started in my career as an entrepreneur, I created a simple kind of mission for myself, which was I wanted to do something that made a measurable difference and was a lasting importance, right, and that was the promise I made to myself. And and one of the features that you see across any company that I get involved with or found is that we I build businesses in context of my values, right, whether it was with Holler, where we had a very simple mission, which was to enriched conversations everywhere and do so in a way that was ethical. From a technology perspective, we we challenged, Um, we challenged the way that the technology industry was handling D and I right, and we try to push how we could make it more inclusive and better and and in many different ways. And so that was a Howard. And then I grew black. was under the same thing. Right. How do we transform media ownership and investment, because we believe that monopolistic media is dangerous for society. So how do we create a more inclusive environment where me, as an individual, my voice right, me, I'm included, economically, right. How can we change media to be a space that and that allows that? How do we enable that at scale? Um. So, I think every different entrepreneur has their side, their styles. Some some are Quantz some are technologists, some are many people are everything. But I build businesses that, at the core, do the right thing. Uh, and that and that's my philosophy as an entrepreneur. That really resonates with me because a lot of the times when you hear these founder stories, it's always that same mold off. You know, you saw that niche or there's a there's a market and you see that there is a either a product...

...or a service that doesn't exist yet, and and there's a challenge and people want to solve it. But that's about as deep as it goes. And I love that you're the work that you're doing in the companies that you have founded are all rooted in these values of the change that you're wishing to drive, not not only in the black community but in the community at large. And so as you've embarked on these Um you know, founding these different companies, what's the most unexpected challenge that you have faced as an entrepreneur? Um, it's we all know it's hard, but is there something that surprised you initially? So, and I think this is what what drove me to found the second company. So raising raising capital as a black founder in America's incredibly hard. When I started right and I remember Um going when I was starting, sorry, my first star it up. I went to take a meeting with an investor and that meeting, UH, the investor took that meeting as a courtesy, but for me that meant that I couldn't afford to get out of the garage. That day and I had to call my mother to give me twenty dollars to get out of the garage, right, and at that moment in time I was like, is this a problem that's unique to me? And I said it couldn't be, right. And the reason how I know is because we're at the fact that we're still at the moment in time where there's only one percent of investment dollars that go to black founders, right, and so these are the kind of and and so that was a unique challenge. Like you're supposed to go to friends and family who could afford to just give you a couple hundred thousand dollars to get started, Start Your Tech Company and if it fails, no worries, you can try again, right. That's not reality for many people. And so you know, as I as I think about and you know, we went on to raise sixty million dollars for holler right and grow that business. And you know, obviously there's in group black has had an incredible amount of fact, that attraction and that and as the second time as a reekie entrepreneur, it was certainly a different type of scenario after I've proved myself. But you know, I still think about that founder in in in in Minnesota or or, you know, not even there, like Chile or whatever. Right like that, the that doesn't have the type of access that is expected to when you're when you're you're going. And how do we change that? You know, we've done in a vague we've driven in a Vata like we as a society have found, have have solved some of the most like incredible things. We figured so many things out technologically, medical and all sorts of different areas, and I think creating opportunity, driving inclusion is something that we could solve. I believe that inclusion, like I believe the inclusion, is the biggest business opportunity today. And what I mean and and and what I mean by that is inclusion is not just the right thing to do. Their strong economic opportunity, their strong power in economically in inclusion. So you look at and I'll give you some of them. I know we're other places, but to give you an example, if you look at in media, right, so if content that reflects me as that is represented of me as an individual or my voice right, or or things that including that performs well in Conto, Squid Games, Black Panther right, like these are not just like really including different cultures, but there inclusion of different cultures has strong economical terms. These has been some of the...

...biggest hits that we've seen in the last decade. If you look at Web Three Point Oh, and I'm gonna switch my hat from the media guy to the technology guys, if you, if you, if you look at web three point Oh, one of the core pillars of web three point Oh is driving economic inclusion for creators. Right. Web Two point Oh platforms did not do a good job in including the creators that drove the engagement on their platforms, like including them in the economics of the value. Web Three Point Oh will solve that. And so, like, I'm excited about the technologies that we're seeing in web free because of that. But at the end of the day it's about how do we drive inclusion of more and more people? And if we do that, not only your democratizing opportunity but the businesses that enable that will perform better. M Hm. And that really starts with raising the funding rounds. I remember, Um there is the stat around maybe I don't remember exactly, but around eighty percent of the purchasing decisions in the US are made by women. But then, for example, of female founders when they go out and try to raise some capital. I remember of this story that broke where, Um, two women founders actually invented a fictional guy as their third founder so that they could at least get the meetings done. and Um and, I'm wondering for you, since now you've you've founded multiple companies, have the attitudes changed a little? Is it easier to have those conversations, not just because you've proven your value as an entrepreneur, but also maybe with Um, black lives matter and all those conversations around it? Are we are more doors opening, or is there still a lot of work to be done in that realm? It's better, it's not good enough. And here, and this is what I mean by that. So even still, so, you know, even still today you have me and I look at me and my my two CO founders. Rich is a very successful entrepreneur in itself. He sold his company, built his company largest natural beauty brand in the country. So it's Unilever Um has then, when, in essence, not very Commons entrepreneur. I'M A multiple serial entrepreneur and our other CO founder, was the CMO Pepsi Um and, you know, the chief media officer, a modelige. And so even when I even us, when we go into the and have conversations about brand investing or it takes longer than it should. Right. And if if US three together as founders with our kind of credentials, like still has, still have. We we push and advocate and and we have, we've had, we have had and are having great success with what we're doing at group black. But I start to think about what. Why does it still take so much energy to move the inertia like become the inertia? So I think we still have some work to do. There are systemic things that still exist today that we need to uh as an industry, examined and interrogate and asked why. The good news is, though, is that there are a lot more partners in different whether it's from the Brandon Agency community, whether it's in thevethmic community that are are are are have identified it and are taking and partnering with us to take a look right so that we can start changing. So, to answer your question, I think we're better than we were before. I am excited about the direction where things are going. But we're not there yet. Do you think that's being discussed enough? Because when I look at the conversation, obviously I'm I'm biased in looking at it from the advertising industry perspective because I am, like, you know, neck jeeping that world and I see there's a lot of conversation around both Um, hiring, more diverse leadership teams, hiring, hiring and D E I.

But I don't think that I haven't seen a lot of conversations around investing into, Um, black owned startups, into minority owned startups. Do you think that it's also almost like a conversation that's bubbling under? Or maybe this is just, you know, my world and where I come from. What do you think? The investment is not so your your your observations are correct. Now, Um, and this is part of it. So, like many times, I have conversations and they're and, and, and they're like, you know, we have a diverse workforce and we are advertising to black audiences. Right. Well, okay, like when you're you're advertising to black audiences, that means you're taking money out of that community. You're not investing money into that, right. And so when you're what? What? What? What? What? The objective should be assignment should be we how do we invest and and conduct businesses equitably? How do we look at the systems that we have in place to say that have cause communities, that that have and have cause certain communities not to advance? How do we correct those? So that is in and that at the core of it. It's an investment, right. If people can't, if there's no investment going into that community, how do you create the pipeline? Right? Here's no pipeline. So when you think about, like the conversation around black owned media, right, it's when you create, when you invest in black owned media companies and black creators, Um, it's it's really that you're you're putting money directly back into that community. And what they what tends happened, is they invest in their communities right, and your your elevated. So your career, you're you're you're changing the the system and you're creating economic opportunity. M Hmmm. For example, when Rich Uh sold his company to you, Laver, he established a hundred million dollar funds for black men a hundred million dollars from for black women. Those two funds have now created billions of dollars in value for entrepreneurs, black entrepreneurs, men and women. That's how you start enabling and creating more economic opportunity. That's why we are so focused on this now. You could scale the concept. This is not just something you need like that to be unique to grow black. You could use this concept for every community that is underserved, right and right, whether if you're focused on the advance and of women or L or people color of all types. A P I like all of that. That it's about. How do you make sure that the system extracts value from a community, but it reinvest in the community, and it's a knight and it's a and and it's a progressive cycle, and that's that's what we try to push for. And that's actually a great segue to discussing group black. Um, you already touched upon this a little bit, but give us the elevator pitch on on group black and what you are set out to accomplish, Um, with a company. Yeah, so group Black, at its core, is a media collective and accelerator focused on the advancement of black owned media, and we created it with uh an objective to create more wealth for the community than ever before. We do so by doing really three things specifically. One, create access, access to media dollars, access to opportunity, access to opportunities for diverse voices to be heard. Um. That's our work. There is is the embodiment of that work, is the nearly half a billion dollars that we've been able to close and commitment from brand in our first year uh to be spent with the community. Um. The second piece... infrastructure. There is provide infrastructure. So we're talking about the whole community of companies and creators that have not been invested in at scale before, and so they haven't they they haven't been able to in many cases, not all cases, but in many cases, haven't been able to invest in the resources and infrastructure to be able to work with brands and agencies at scale. And so, therefore, for a group black, we make sure we build and provide those things that enable that as a platform. And then, lastly, we are an investor and yes, we invest in, we invest in, in, in in companies. Um. And you know, going back to what I said earlier, which is that was one of the hardest challenges that I based as an entrepreneur. So we need to do that we need to be a part of that solution. But also so, uh, we invest in scaled assets. Um. Well, we a quote, were acquiring scaled assets um that we could that could be used for the benefit of of our collective. Um. So we're excited about that. We grew from eight companies in our collective to over two hundred in our first year. Um. So it just, it just really shows that how how important the problem was and uh, you know, we're excited to be doing what we're doing. It was, you know, it was wild to me when, you know, I listened to you speak of the panel Um in can and then also obviously did some background reading and it never really occurred to me that even if there is a willingness from brands, from big holding companies, to invest and spend money on black media and creators, that there isn't always enough to spend on the ecosystem. Isn't there yet. And so I think it's so fascinating and also so smart how you're approaching this from all these different angles that you need to actually builded Um at scale. And so talk to me a little bit about how you're doing this, how you're kind of attacking all these like different sides off the problem to really make sure that there are both creators and companies and and black owned media outlets that brands can then spend money on and invest into as well. Yeah, so, when I when when we started a group black, we went on a listening tour Um and we talked to as the hundreds of like different founders Um to understand the needs. Right, what are the unique challenges? And the good news was that they all needed similar things. They needed scale, they needed to scale their content production. They needed media and entertainment distribution, right, they needed like impression, denyeball, they need a reach uh, and then, lastly, they needed technology. Right, when you think about it, it is at the core, and for me as a technologist, when every when everybody, when every customer, needs a similar type solution, then we could build a platform for that. Right. So actually, I look at group black as a platform, right, that that provides, that services the needs of the collective. We built out uh, as we thought about to address these needs. We built out infrastructure, everything from measurement to customers and the operations, all these things that are collective. As has been able to take advantage of creative strategy brand, like our brand strategy team. That helps take their concept to make them bigger. Right. We provide reach across the group black collective. Right. Some, some companies have media but no content. Some people have content no media. Right do we? How do we understand that and marry that with friends...

...that want to reach their these audiences and want to be in content authentically? But it was impractical to do so with so many small, despair partners. Group black as a singular drives the efficiency that they're looking for. So there's there's there's that. The other piece is more scale. Right. So for us we were like, well, how do there's only so many impressions or me in in black owned. So we partnered. We we we were inspired by the level of enthusiasm that partners like penskey media and Sashi media as part of that. I Love Sam Um and you know Ziff Davis and all those folks. How? How? How that wanted to be a part of the solution and as part of that, we let we launched group black uplift, right, which is a platform where these companies have opened up their inventory and their impressions and dedicating it to distribute the content from creators and are collective, creating more opportunity for them. Right. So now I'm a creator and I could have my stuff distributed in all these different places, and that's physically creating more opportunity and more than the economics. Go back to the to black oh right, um. And and so it's it's it's going, it's it's and then obviously the technology that we've done the group black exchange and all the brands there and all you know, allowing bringing programmatic capabilities, bringing measurement capabilities, bringing all these things. So at the core of it is providing the providing infrastructure that address or plug the needs and so that when a brand says that we want to invest, like PMG or something, they're able to do so at scale and that touches as many members and are collective as we can. So you're your your streamlining what is a very complex operation between all these different you know, media and then people who have the content, and then also centralizing all of that into one place. So making it as simple as possible to start growing this ecosystem. Am I correct? Exactly, and engaging in partnerships and growth, in misiatives that help. At the end of the day, there there needs to be a lot net more. Right, they shouldn't. If you look at it, there's only like ten that have real scale. Right. We need that list to be bigger, and so that's what we're focused on. I will be like one of the things that I always say is we achieved our mission a group black who were no longer necessary, right, yeah, and that is a like I'm trying to work my way out of a job, so to speak. So, you know, we're very excited, like it's a it's it's a big job, Um, you know, but we're really sided to be undertaking it and the the team that's here is is the best in class team, some of some incredibly senior executive team members and executives that have joined this cause to help us advanced the mission forward. So now, if I'm thinking about our listeners, and you're maybe they're working on the agency side or working in a brand org and they want to help solve this, they want to invest Um in black creators and black owned media. What's the first concrete step that they can take, Um, towards actually making that a reality? So I have to give procter and gamble a shout out here, because they've been spectacular, Um, in every, every, every single way. Um, what the one of the things, the first thing that I've seen our most successful partners do is they engagements,...

...have a conversation, for we could, we could explain what's the challenge today, but also here their challenges. Right, we aligned that way, and what we've done is we've, we've, we've, we've, whether it's our agency partners like group them or or rope, any of these trucks, we we, we we set, we work together and said we set a target on we need we if we believe that this that black owned, median, diverse creators, our culture, makers and culture moves business performance, we need to let's align. Let's align with a target that we're going to set ourselves on how we're going to start investing into this category in a meaningful way at scale and set the kind of set a mark for ourselves. Right, you've seen this when we announced our seventy five million dollar target media investment with group them. We work with brands to the point where we have half a billion dollars, nearly half a billion dollars today, a brands that have kind of stepped up and said Hey, yes, we are going to work with you strategically. We're going to help, we're gonna give you feedback, we're gonna work with your creators and companies and we're gonna do so in a way that's meaningful, not like hey, here's a fifty campaign. Not that were bad, but at the end of the day, that doesn't move we're talking about large global brands. That's not moving the business right and that's not moving that's not moving anything for the community as well. So we all, we, we, we really we. We engage in real serious conversations about how, like, let's align ourselves strategically. Allow I want you to be honest with me. I will be honest with you, and I don't know. That's good partnership and we're going to get the results. And it's not just and and it's not charity, right, it's innovation. This is innovation right, because at the end of the day, what I said before is inclusion is the biggest business opportunity today. Right, the economic power of inclusion is real, especially when you think about Gen Z and Gen Alpha. So, like, how are we? How are you, as a brand of business, changing the structure of how you do things so that it could go with the next generation of consumers and like buyers and your customers. So that's the real magic in the folks that work the best with us. It's those people who look at this as a strategic opportunity for their businesses, not just hey, a nice thing to do exactly now. I like that approach of looking at it. Okay, what is the meaningful business outcome that we will get out of doing this program or not even doing this program making the shift into how we do business, how we market, how we advertise and who we do that with? Um, I'M gonna shift focus a little bit too. Um, let's let's dive into inside organizations. Um, you've stated before that traditional D e I programs don't work. Why do you think that is so? One of the core reasons traditional B D I programs don't work is because they're treated like a Bolton right, versus a a fundamental philosophy or or of how the business operates. Right. So what we like, like we want, if you want it, it should feel integrated in a big way. So, for example, you know, I worked in finance and when I worked in finance I was putting a D Yeah I program like like you know,...

...there was a this is how you should behavior due to fit. Right. Well, culture fits are not good. Culture ads are good. Right. So you, instead of telling people, Hey, this is what you need to do to fit into our organization, the question should be, how do we leverage what's special about you to make this environment richer in better right? That's an idea of continuous improvement. What we a common feature of what most a lot of D I programs and not, I feel like some of them are changing, but a lot of feature a lot of them have is this idea that we need to make sure that you you fit. And then, therefore it's like yeah, I might, I'm trying to fit, I might fit, but I don't really feel like I belong, which is a is a is a is an issue. So it's you have to be very, very um like when we when, when, when organizations are thinking about of that, I encourage I encourage them to think about that in the context of what they're what you're even saying when you start initiating such programs. Now another interesting like one of the things that are I love. So are chief people at her M J uh she said to she said to me if we ever need. She's like, if we ever need to hire, like, like, go ahead and establish a diversity department and or or or or function. And she's like, you should replace me because I can't do my job right. She's baking it into how these things. So if you look at the organization at group Black, it's the most colorful diverse there. Everyone't there, right, and a lot of people think that just black people work at black people group black, but that's not true. Group black is more of an idea, right. It's symbolic of this broader, uh concept that we call the inclusion age, where we believe we are pushing for a day we called the inclusion age, where these conversations are redundant. They don't, you know, not necessary anymore. Um. So that's the genesis. That is that the genesis of one meant, or what I meant when I when I said that, and I almost think this might be a harsh thing to say, but if we think about culture fits and especially when we look at when you're looking to hire, Um, a diverse workforce, you're telling them you have to act and sound a certain way, and that kind of like to me. What that says is, you know, respectability, politics, which you know, at its roots is it's a culture being, a culture of it. It's pretty racist if you come, if you come and think about it, we all have to act and sound the same way and be of the same mold to fit this company. And if we, you know, if if we look at it, typically the what the ideal is, at least in like many company needs, it's always that sort of the white male ideal. Right, how you sound, how you speak, how you conduct business, right, and so, Um, I think companies overall should like really like drop the whole culture fit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Um. And then also, um again, like going back to advertising and that world. Um, and I mentioned this already, there are a lot of efforts to fixing hiring and leadership and and just having more representation across the board. Um, but that's just the diversity side of it. The is the inclusion piece there, because I'm thinking who actually then gets that great, Um, creative brief, that Super Bowl ad? WHO GETS TO WORK ON THAT? Like, how do we fix and empower Um, people wants, they're inside the organization, organization, to make sure that they have opportunities to actually grow and shine in their roles. Um, what? What do you think about that? Yeah, so I think that it starts with the like how it's...

...structured over like, what is the makeup of this thing overall? So it reminds me of when when we were building Holler, and at Holler we built the platform to over seventy million users, right, and those users were, those consumers were all over the world, right, you know, and our product was centered around self expression. And self expression is different by person, by culture, by right. And so even if you go to like, like like, even down to the emogion and smiles, they mean different things to different cultures, because that's we were. So for us, we we one of our core values or beliefs were expression is for everyone. So we need to be for everyone, right. And so when we thought about what we the type of team and organization that we needed to build, it needed to be representative of the like really diverse, because it's more representative of the people that we serve. I tie that back to the this about how do we ensure that not just time for diversity, but really a question of belonging organizations that create environments that allow for it, like in the makeup are naturally diverse, but then not all this are they to allow the diversity to sink through. Right. It creates an environment that's naturally more accepting and allows for self expression at scale across the organization. When you do that, people are able to bring them best, their best selves. When you do that, they're able to, like people look at differentness as a superpower, right, and something that we all could learn from, and so that creates an environment where people are able to progress, they get access to different things, they look at different people, look at different skill sets as things that are a that they should embrace and harness, versus the other way around. So I think when we think about it, I remember when I was at a conference and I got a question and they said who in the organization should be responsible for D and I I was like, that is not one person job, that is everyone, right, like that is everyone's job to be responsible for D and I right, it's the it's not, it's it's it's not something that is like administered like a vaccine. It's something that you take every single day and do like vitamins. Right. So that's really, really at the core um how I think the best organizations run. I'm seeing that I cannot tell you how much I appreciate going in every single day two people who are like like they could, they could where what they want, they to speak how they want to like, because it's part of their culture. It's amazing. I learned something new every single day. I'm like, I will go like it's just so much fun Um and I wish, my only wishes more and more people got to experience it at their companies Um, and that's why we do the have these conversations. So it's start to take that that that ship. M Hm. And then, you know, when I relate this back into the creative industry or any type of creative work, it can be, you know, can be in tech, creating new products, new services. When you have that baseline of psychological safety in showing up as who you are in your workplace, you're also going to be more productive, you're going to be more creative, you're going to be able to think more outside the box, versus if you're looking to like fit that, you know again, that infamous culture fit Um. And one thing I'll add. One thing I'll...

...add to that too, like I've just since we met in Ken um I it was one of the most kind of Um special things to me about can was that, you know, we created a space where it was like very diverse and very like we we encouraged the collective to come, we encouraged diverse creators to come. We and like until you saw that, and we created spaces, physical spaces, whether it was our beach or our events or are our places that we sponsored. We created spaces where people could go and feel like they were accepted and they belong and then etcetera. And it was amazing, like it was like, you know, it was tons of fun. I don't know if you went to some of ourselves, but it was sons of fun. It was amazing. But people were what was the special piece to me was people were as I walked down the streets, sometimes people were stopping me that I didn't know and we're telling me. Think you I've never felt like I belonged more more so than I ever have this year, and I've been coming to this conference for years. Right back to me said we're onto something right, the way we're going about everything that we do, whether we're the way we're activating, the way we're approaching the problem, where, the way we're partnering, it's having it's resonating financially, what with the types of skill of deals were doing. It's making people feel better like those are the that is us living our mission, that is US bringing the world to the inclusion age. Right when they say thank you, I belong. Well, I I cannot wait to see what you're going to be doing in cannon. I'm sure it's only going to get bigger and bolder from here. Um. So I have one more question for you, and we have a community of marketers and creatives listening. What's the one takeaway that you want them to remember from this conversation? I mean, it's been full of insights and gems, but if there's just one thing that you would like them to remember in their day to day what would that be? Inclusion is the biggest opportunity today. Right, whether you're a marketer WHO's trying to reach people, whether you're a business owner that's thinking or a business leader that's thinking about your organization, whether you're trying to reach consumers with stories, whatever it is, think about inclusion not as just a nice thing to do, but think about it as a massive opportunity. That's what we did and it's working really well, and so think about how inclusion works for your how how you're you could be more inclusive, whether it's economically, for people, their voices, whatever, but it's a huge opportunity and I think if we ask a community invest in it together, not only will we perform better, but we'll change the world at the same time. Travis, thank you so much for coming on brand side. If people want to connect with you and get involved with group black or any of the other initiatives that you have, how can they reach you, Travis, at group black? There you go, Um and and for all of you listening, thank you for being here. I think this is one of those episodes that you want to share with your colleagues, you know, drop it into your company's black. Not For me, but for Travis, for group Black, and we we just need to spread the word and spread the message. This is being just fantastic. Thank you again. Thank you, Gussy. You've been listening to brand's side by the creative automation company SELTRA. If you like the show, we'd love a rating and review, and don't forget to follow wherever you listen to podcasts. Until next time,.

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