Demystifying Performance Creative with Headlight
Brand-Side
Brand-Side

Episode · 5 months ago

Demystifying Performance Creative with Headlight

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In the last few years, performance marketing creative has exploded in popularity. 

Yet for many organizations, there are still plenty of misconceptions about how to best incorporate and integrate it to the larger marketing strategy. 

To help demystify performance marketing, today I’m speaking with Sharon Romang, VP, Creative at Headlight, who has a vast wealth of experience in the space. 

Join us as we discuss:

  • Why performance marketing thrives when applied across multiple channels
  • Some of the ways Sharon has applied performance marketing to help her client’s unique needs
  • The communication between teams and mindset necessary to maximize the benefits of performance marketing  

Find this interview and many more by subscribing to BRAND-SIDE on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or on our website.  

Welcome to brand side, a new podcast by Celtra, were we interview marketing creative operations and design meters to find out what life is like inhouse, first agency side and how big creative ideas come to life at the world's best brands. This is brand side by Sultra. You are listening to Brandside, a podcast on all things creative and advertising, and today we are diving into the world of performance branding with Sharon Romance. She is the VP creative at the agency headlight and she brings in a decade, or over a decade, of experience working at agencies, creative studios and on the brand side. She's worked at the New York magazine. She was my colleague over at smartly, I owe. She's worked at coloium and united virtualities. I'm so happy to have you on the show. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. It's so great to talk to you in this way. Lastly, your I've been listening to the podcast a bunch and you know, such a huge fron so you know, and honored to be here, for sure. Yeah, and for me as well. I have obviously followed your work for a long time and I've also been able to see it very up and close. You know, we've worked on a couple of projects over at smartly for brands back then and now. So today we are all about creativity and specifically in the context of social and performance campaigns, and it's it really is an area you are an expert in. But before we go into that, just talk to me a little bit about your career and how you've got to where you are today. Yeah, for sure. Thanks so much for having me. About me. So right now there wouldp of creative headlight. Where a growth agency. I started my career almost fourteen years ago. I'm ready. I actually you know, it was a workcase. I was in high school and I've got recruited by agency right when I was seventeen and a half, eighteen. So I started with my school from high school a pretty early on. You know, she's developing up or fully pretty early on. It again, it wasn't good at all, but you know, I guess you start somewhere. I've done from there. You know, I did school. This was actually back in Argentina, where I'm from, and I did school at the same time, as you know, being in this agency. And then years later we moved with my family. We moved to the US, finish school here and then, you know, moved to New York City and then started, you know, the The New York Life, you know, working in a couple of different places, such as near Mag and then, obviously with you and Smartie, your place that I obviously miss, that has so much fun with you there. You know, eventually found myself here at headlight. I'm truly enjoying it and you know, I've been focusing on performance marketing for the last, I will say five years specifically, and so I'm really glad to be having this conversation with you now. Yeah, and so with this new exciting leadership roll add headlined, What Are you tasked to do? I know that you're actually they're building and growing the team that is offering creative services to to your brand clients. And so talk to me. What is the agency known for? What is their bread and butter and why are they're expanding into...

...into creative today, for sure, so headline offers up or fully of growth and creative services for specifically tailor to be the months of disruptive Internet business. So our customers tire us for like a bunch of different things. It could be, you know, accellary current success, turnop performances or go to from like, you know, zero to one. You know, and particularly myself, I'm in charge of expanding the creative arm of the company. So we, you know, focus on piring with all of our growth managers and really just like get together, huddle and figure it out. What is that each of our quiets need when it comes to creative and you know, performance marketing is huge right now. It's been huge for the last couple of years for sure, and obviously my job is to bring also some of thedeas of like higher funnel brand campaigns to lower funnel and make sure that they don't look exactly like what you were saying, just you know, product adds with a price on top. So yeah, yeah, it's interesting how it's a similar trajectory as we're smartly, I owe started so, you know, started at pure play media, buying, growth services, performance, so that side of the business and then expanding into creative and you've seen that evolution over it smartly, and so now you're bringing all of that learning and insights into growing these this team, Adam, at headlight, and you know, you work with some really fantastic brands over the course of your career. I specifically remember some of the illustration work that you did for spotify, I believe it was last year, for some of their campaigns. So like really beautiful, really rich, creative that really steps outside of that realm of of performance marketing that is absolutely known for just just being like okay, we just need to get this done and out there. But now we're really bringing back that focus on what's the story across every touch point that you have. And so how would you say that the paid social industry has evolved around creative practices and say the last five years that you've been in it, like where have we gone from the early days to where we are today? No, it's a super interesting question. You know, it's I think, like you know, five years ago, I remember when when I really started like focusing on performance marketing, I think everyone was just like exclusively thinking of like one channel only, and you know, people were doing creative for facebook and facebook created looking o our specific way. Right. Eventually everything involved. We have a ton of different channels to focus on, you know, and I think now it's something so per interesting is happening. It's behind cover. The last. You know, I will say two to three years of there's this practice of what works with one channel could potentially also work in other channels. So, for example, there's psych this tick tock, tick tockification of the different channels. Try so I always sell, you know, my team. Look at what's working on twitter, look out what's working to read it, look at what's working on tech talk and say what Instagram? It's a true and you know, definitely come up with creative that's you know, focus on those specific channels but at the same time start trying out different things are work in different channels. Are Gros scre...

...it was because it's, you know, if you think about yourself and probably you know thirty minutes ago, from one APP to maybe another for APS, you know, socially APPs. So you know the and users the same and we're all kind of like mixing things up. You know, we react to things that have work for twitter on Instagram, like you see a lot of like tweets on Instagram, for example, or you see a lot of tack talks on Instagram and by its person. So I think it's just this practice of being really up to day. We what's happening on every single channel and applying it across multiple different creatives across channel. So and I think another another thing that I've been seeing is that when we had we started having those conversations around social, creative needing to, you know, step its game up, like four, three, four years ago, and back then it was very much about, you know, even with like, you know, working closely with facebook, they would come back and say, okay, you need to have your logo in the first two seconds and there was it was very formulaic. You know, you have your formula here and you know, make sure that your brand is visible and your call to actions and whatever your offers. And I feel like now we're breaking free of that. I think tick tock has really been pushing that change, because tick tock is just wonderfully chaotic and I think it best also represents human creativity, because it's all about the creators and these like unexpected ways of storytelling are now also breaking back into brand advertising, which I find really, really interesting. And so you've done a lot of work and you know you've been around town with paid social. So for many creatives and marketers, the limitations of paid social, the formats, the length the video, they can feel challenging for storytelling. It's easy when you just have to like plaster an offer and just like send it out to market, but if you want to do something beautiful and something branded and tell that story, what are your tips for working within that framework and kind of taking the most of it? Yeah, so what I see a lot is, you know, bronze taking, you know, their longer clips, something that might do for TV or something that I do for, you know, loanform Youtube. It's a truck, and then cutting that down and calling that, you know, performance marketing, little funnel. But I think there's another way to see it. I was I would say, you know, first try out a hundred different things, you know, almost like take a story, cut it in a hundred different parts. Maybe not a hundred, maybe ten, okay, and try out different things in those two parts and test that and paid social and let that inform what the bigger story will be as well what might actually drive performance in higher funnel as well. So I would almost like not see it as a limitation, but I will see us, you know, it's short form of like what's actually caught someone's attention immediately. So it's, you know, you're on the advantage that you're right and frown of clients all the time, right. So it's a format that allows you to say a lot very briefly, who weekly and really understand why, you know,...

...cut his attention on your brand. It could be specific value propositions. It could be a character. You know, that's across all your different you know, probuct ads, whatever they could be. You know, specific copy. That my job performance and they lit led that inform. You know the larger story. Are you seeing that more brands just to follow up to the the previous that they are now starting to think when they for example, when they're starting to plan production? They have their creative concept, they have their scripts. Are you seeing that they're starting to plan the actual production and film shoots from the point of view that okay, we actually need to have these different iterations and scenes shot specifically for paid social or is it still in that phase where we're repurposing film content that is made for TVC's or a full length digital video? Are we getting there or not? You know, it's that's the super that's a fun question because I remember what we were working to get out smartly right. This was four years ago or so. We Ha the struggle with a lot of brands, because a lot of bruns Straw in a way that it would really apply for, you know, this the kind of like short form videos for short form, just like Conta in general, right. And you know, I think we did a lot of work there to make this front think about shooting this way. And then now I had, like I'm actually saying specifically in a couple of clients. How, you know, when we, you know, proposed a strategy for specific and pain and then, you know, they provide us with whatever, you know, available footage or imagery they have and then, you know, we go back to them and said, you know, it will be great to have had like this particular shot or, you know, have this specific characters laid out in this way, or even just like, you know, this product shot should be this er that way. And you know, you see how on the broad side they just kind of like their eyes just open wide, you know, wide open, right, and it's like, okay, you know what, that makes a lot of stunts. We actually have a shoot in the next couple weeks. We're going to bring this up then. So I do think that there's stub process and a progress in place for that, which is really exciting because, you know, everyone realizes that. You know, it was on their phones just constantly, you know, and thinking for performance marketing is kind of like the way to God, says. Yeah, and for you specifically as you are, you know, you are hired to build out this practice and and the creative arm of off your agency is one of your strategy is kind of like getting earlier and earlier in the concept, in an ideation cycle, of the client so that you can then inform them and influence them on the assets that then they will deliver to you. So like kind of like getting like higher up in that workflow and not just sort of getting those ready assets when everything is already produced according to I don't know TV and just basically like YouTube Pre roll parameters. Totally. I mean I think it definitely art is for client, right, but we do have clients that are super you know, few tru forward and allows us to continuously get, like...

...differ on deeper into the process. And you know, I see it, you know, in the first project, second third project with a specific client and you know, by the fifth project were fully integrated, you know, and they already know exactly what we need and exactly how this whole thing works. And they've understand they, you know, they understood best practices for all the channels after, you know, training that we're done with them at Strau. So it's really great to see clients being open to, you know, continuously learn on this because, you know, you and me work on this on our daily basis and we both know that it's not that something that you can just learn by starting into something that you have to be in it all day, every day to understand, you know, like what's the current trend? Was the industry best practice? Like what's the new thing that's coming up on facebook, Tick Tock, rather, you know, instagram, etc. So it's just constant learning and it's great. Yeah, and I also think that if we now look back, I want to say that like the from like two thousand and ten to two thousand and twenty, like that was the sort of the decade of you know, explosion of programmatic performance marketing. But it was all driven by algorithms and was driven by the vast amounts of user data that facebook and the likes were able to leverage to really get great results for paid performance teams. And so they didn't really need creative to use it as a lever for performance. But, as we know, the privacy landscape is changing. So there were. We're already seeing that that the old tricks are not working as well anymore, and that's and that enters can enter creativity, and that's actually now, at least, I hope to see that. This decade is all about, like investing back in the brand and investing back in the storytelling and all the notion of remarkable brands. You've worked on many. Is there a project that stands out in the realm of paid social and and why? For sure, a couple brands are deer, you know, loves of mine, I guess. I work with over really closely, over global, and I work with spotify. Now work with title love. Title Love Spotify, and on both spotify and title, you know, I had to get involved in actually, you know, they both had a bit of our rebrand when it comes to the creative that they were pushing on to social in general. It's something that perhaps users weren't really noticed right away, but that's because I we did our job of making sure that it was like a, you know, seamless transition, and I think that's a really good example of how we took the brand just kind of like the core look, feel, value of the voice of both of those brands and which translated that into performance marketing, because performance marketing creative, is not as what we're saying. It's not just an offer, is not just a quick message. It's also translating, you know, the brand, what it feels, what it means, into, you know, shorter form, kind of like bites, eyes,...

...moments that you see throughout your day. It could be you know, you could see it. You know, when you're waking up, you check your phone. You know, the first thing that you do. Maybe you're I don't know if you're in between a couple of meetings and that you check your phone. Maybe you're chilling after work, you know, and then you check something and then you see that same brand. So all this little moments really form kind of like your perception of the brand and it's super important to translate it in the right way. Yeah, and it's so you know, we we work with a lot of global brands and, you know, huge marketing organizations, CPG. Each of their their business units are separate. You know, you might have a fifty different brands and then they need to get creative deployed across all these different markets. And if you're creative is it starts up grade. You know, you have your global tool kid and you have the central team that's made a beautiful set of assets, but then you know, you go halfway around the world and then you have the local team that's maybe not best equipped to translate those assets into local campaigns and then they start going a little off brand. Maybe another market is even even contracting and a local agency to completely recreate the campaign and you're diluting your brand value in that process. And I think the same thing happens if you're investing a lot of money in your upper funnel and awareness but then created for performances and afterthought. You're really losing out on a lot of opportunities because paid social and paid digital advertising in many instances could be the only time that that con humor touches that brand or sees that brand or interacts with it. So it really is a is a miss moment if you don't don't leverage all of those encounters around along the customers. But what are some of the typical challenges around bringing creativity into performance campaigns. In my point of view, when you know working in this area for a while, is that for a long time it was the performance teams that owned the creative for those types of campaigns, and then the person who really cares about the brand is maybe less involved in the performance piece of the Pie, and I think one of parts of it is this silo thinking that I think is harming brands overall and they need to have more collaboration there. But I'm curious to hear about your thoughts into that, like what's the challenge of bringing create? You want to bring creativity to performance campaigns, like let's say you're an e commerce and you're only running those playing product ads, but now you want to get started. But what are the challenges, like how do you get into the into it totally, I think. First of all, I mean just to go back to one of the comments that you said. You know, you could highly invest in just like the brand, but then maybe like a local team you know, doesn't really have the tools whatever to really apply the brand to the specific adds. I mean just like you know, Proxi self struct for example, really help and that way, you know, just really take the brand, take the elements and out to meet. So, you know, you have ads for all over the world to really just like take the you know, the game home. But to answer your question about, you know, the specific challenges about bring great to...

...beat into performance campaigns, I always think that, you know, yes, we do have the performance team. Well, actually we have the growth team and then we have the creative team, we have the marketing team, we have a thousand other teams. I was saying a company, everyone goes growth, marketing. It's like everyone's reup posibilities. To understand what's happening right now and to bring that into the performance team and the performancing needs to work really, really close together with a creative team, you know, to figure that out. I think, you know, a lot of brands might struggle when comes to actually communicating like or staying up to you know, up to date with like the current trends of like what's happening with, you know, just like creativity and performance market in general. And I think that sometimes has to do with even luck of communication between the creative team and the performance team internally as well. So I think, you know, if there's someone, I don't know, you could be a specific product manager in a complete different team that see something out there, you know, in the wild that you know could say, you know what actually could really work with our you know, our own brand. That person needs to bring that back to the performance team and show that to the creative team, because something that it's supper important is to constantly see what's out there, see what other brands are doing, because everyone's kind of like on their a game on this right now, you know. So seeing what's out there, you know, saying, Oh, you know what, that's really funny. Let's see how we can like turn that around for our run, you know, and jump on that. You know, it's super important. So I think, you know, like a huge challenge is when that communication is broken, when you know you don't really see, you don't really see, you know, besides, you know what's right in front of you. You know, you don't really see around, you know, around yourself, and you just focus on maybe you just have one specific APP on your phone, don't everything. You know, follow a bunch of different brands, follow a bunch of different, I don't know, even just like accounts, that inspiration account. So you're like and see what's happening, because you never know when you're going to say something's going to inspire you for the next big idea. So it's that mix of curiosity. But then also the note, I really like what you said there, that everyone that touches marketing in a company, whether you're in the marketing team, whether you're in the design team, whether you're in the growth team, creative, everyone needs to have that growth marketing mindset and I really like that. Never thought of it from that point of view. Just wanted to call that out. So, if those are some of the challenges, what do you think that are the benefits of investing into your digital creative and into your storytelling totally? So, you know, you said it before. Right now, with the privacy changes that we've been experienced over the last couple of years, it's, you know, really challenging to get data back on who so what, who likes what and what they will like next. So, you know, investing in creative, investing in storytelling, allows you to have a lot of different...

...angles on what your brand might be, what you create a might be in that variety will you to, you know, go further when it comes to marketing, get, you know, a person that maybe you didn't think would like your product that you know, actually convert. And you know, I think brands are art just relying on, I don't know, like a specific current offer that they might have. You know, I'm put that on our ads just constantly. They're not going to find audiences are healthy. They're not going to find they're gonna get addicted to maybe a low momentary CPA. That's really good enough right now, but it's not realistic right because those specific consumers maybe are just therefore, you know, the specific problem that they go right there but they're not maybe super tied to the philosophy of the brand or you know what the brand is behind of you know. So I think investing in creative and investing storytelling to really communicate those things to reach, you know, healthy audiences are going to be with your product long enough. You know, it's crucial these days. Yeah, and again also this episode is a part of our performance branding series that we are that we're bringing around one of our new products that is actually just out now, and it's creative automation for dynamic product ads, which is bringing that performance branding into lower funnel campaigns. And you know, when we were testing this product out with our early customers with, you know, huge ECOMM catalogs and large volumes of creative and campaigns, and you're really seeing that return on ads bend and and lift in both clickthroughs and sales. So, if you think about it from two different perspective, you have your brand person who really cares about the brand and should care about how your brand looks across the funnel, and you know there's more and more brand managers and design leaders were starting to think like that. But then there's the other stakeholder and performance marketers. And if there's growth people listening to this podcast, let right like right now. The reason they should care about it is that ultimately, creative is going to be that performance lever. And I mean I'm kind of like curious to hear from you as well, like now, with the clients that you've started working on and as you start introducing more storytelling across the funnel, like, what kind of results are you typically seeing? For I know it's tough to generalize, but are you seeing that performance lift after you've worked with a brand for a while? Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think if it's growth marketing in general, it's one of those things that you just have to try a hundred different things. They are very, you know, strategic for sure, but you just have to text out a bunch of different things constantly. You have to be reactive enough to go back to our create and I trade based on what you see on a week, you know, don't wait a month, don't wait three months. With a couple days, I mean, I'll just see, based on your budget...

...and like the specific and thin that you're running at the channel, that you're running different metric. But be on top of it and see and see what's happening with this creates. You know, turn off the ones that are not working. Maybe revisit them later and try to revive them in a way that makes sense to what you've seen performs. But you just have to be constantly looking at it and that's our job of obviously the growth marketers. It's a job of, you know, of the created people to understand metrics as well. You know, I think a creative understands metrics and is able to strategize based on that, it's going to go way further than you know. I created that. Just know what looks good. Yeah, yeah, you absolutely have to. You have to care about numbers. Nowadays, if you're in marketing like you, it's there's there's no more this, I'm pure play creative, I'm pure play performance, that we stay in our own boxes. You kind of have to like play, you know, across the fence all the time and getting into the place where you have, either whether it's a partner like headlight or whether you're doing this in house, getting into that place where you have a framework and a process and team resources to have this testing framework where you can continuously itier. It takes a little bit of time to get from zero to that point and it can feel very overwhelming for a marketing organization, especially one that has never really invested into this practice of performance creativity. It can feel like a lot. What are the first steps? What are your recommendations for a brand that wants to get started with bringing creativity into their product campaigns but they've never done what's the first step? That's actually something that we're doing with all of our clients right now. I help like so really introducing, if they had, and you know, experience that yet, the actual, you know, proper testing framework along their evergreen campaign. So something that we ask them in the beginning is really you know, what are the things that you want to find out? At the end of the day, it's up to you guys, you know, and based on those things that they want to find out, maybe you know they know. You know they want to understand, like which alvinsis work better, which messaging works better, even things more you know on the surface, like which color works better. You know, it could be a lot of different things. And after we ask those questions that we bring strong with them. Okay, then if you want to find out all those things, then we should probably come up with certain concepts that touch those things and compete against each other to figure it out, like what's Beuss, you know. So I would say a lot of things that I've very important to do are, for example, looking at why their competitors are doing or looking at someone that they really admire in a different industry and a different vertical see what they're doing. Even, you know, on the organic side, what's happening? Let's see what's happening there. Let's see people's reactions, you know, let's see what are the trendsfer and I think once you start asking those questions, performance seemed that perhaps are not, you know, strictly creative, start thinking in a very creative way. So it's about really asking those those right questions. And then once you have your testing framework in place and things got rolling and then they see the data,...

...they they started like quickly understanding like what's working, what's not working, but are driving, you know, Higher Ross etc. And you know, it's just kind of like that's the start of the process and then you quickly understand, you know, what are the next creative ideas that you have based on reading that specific you know, for those specific or performance results. So yeah, and then at the same time, I think it's also important to not just focus on the current channels that you know, you're currently leveraging, but constantly start exploring new channels. This may be, you know, a little bit no applicable to all clients right now, but you know, what's happening on B R. Everyone's in the metaverse. You know, like what's happening there? Perhaps it's not something that we can top on right now immediately, but it's important to start looking into it, you know, because eventually I feel like that's definitely going to be separate channel that we're all going to be just kind of like fighting each other on like what performs best. Yeah, yeah, I think I've got to need to get a net a verse expert on Pretty Soon to discuss this with me and also like teach me a little bit about it, because right now I'm I'm a kind of steal in that phase of like all right, like this is second life, like I played stems when I was like twelve years old. Are we now getting back to it? But yeah, it's definitely no. It's funny, you know, when I started at headlight, I was up in to our CEO grant and he said, well, welcome, happy you're here. Also, we're going to send you an a kilos because we're going to have or a hollyway party in the metaverse. So you know, well, I know, I'd like we're having all this. We we are having meetings in the metaverse. It's not even a joke because we are testing it out. We're saying what's happening, you know. Yeah, so it's important to get out there, out there or in there, or however you call it. I guess you need to teleport yourself into this dimension as well. Yeah, so, for any brands that are are listening right now and you haven't gotten your performance marketing right yet, like just started with your simple framework based on what you're already testing on the performance side, and then you can you can get in touch with Charon and discuss metavers once you've mastered your once you've mastered your performance bread. Who knows, maybe a we're getting there. Maybe we'll take this podcast into the metaverse. Hey, that could be cool. I think I'll be done. Actually, yeah, so some some, something to take offline. All Right, I've got one more question for you, and I think I kind of like teas is already how, specially in the earlier days of performance creative is, it was all about the formulas and the rules and the best practices and everyone should blindly follow the same five rules for like creating a story add or creating a video ad on on social so is there a creative rule that a lot of are still following when they make performance add and you just think that should be broken or disregarded? Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot and I think you know it's having our creative team is amazing and having like super you know, delicate, refine looking at it's also, I mean he say right, but at the same time something that we, you and...

I, are probably seeing the same thing. But, you know, specifically on Tick Tock, for example, I think a lot of those ads are not even fully developed by, you know, a huge agency. It could ally slow simply be developed by, you know, someone in performance marketing team who had, you know, maybe thirty eight four minutes and their day and they saw something that could work really well. They made a little video on Tick Tock, they put it out and perhaps that specific as performing way better than, you know, like a k video that, you know, you paid one specific creator. You know. So I would say, you know, let's bring the rules off, let's make super refined creative all the time and let's try to as I said earlier, everyone in the the company does creative. Everyone in the company those growth and so let's explore you know, a lot of different people and the company trying different things or bring it different things, you know. And I had like with it a little tick tock challenge, for example, a while ago, to have everyone just like kind of like download the APP and figured it out like how to do a day in a life, and I think that let a lot of people understand really like people that are no specific on the growth side or the creative side, understand like what's working there and what's not. What's not working there, and a lot of really good stuff came out of that, you know. So that could be one of the main rules to break. So it's really interesting how right now in performance, creative and digital marketing overall, there's these two almost like competing lines that need to happen at the same time. So on one side of the table we have this. We know that we need to have the brand applied consistently across every single touch point. It's whether it's the first upper final creative or the one five hundred performance adds that you're deriving from the product catalog and you're applying the design and creative templates and rules on top to make sure that you're consistent and that you look like a believable brand that you have that trust in that you can buy from. You know, we did some research into consumer sentiments and it I believe. I believe it was around like sixty six seventy percent of consumers are more likely to buy from brands that have consistent and high quality branding. So on one side you need to have this brand excellence applied across all different assets. And on the flip side of this coin, there is this tick tock world of storytelling that is raw, low budget, authentic, that like doesn't really look like at first glass to be at the brand standards that you would think that any type of ad should be. So those two are now existing at the same time, and so it's not either all. But you actually have to do both right, a hundred percent. You have to do both and you have to do both constantly a very well. So absolutely, you still have to do all the you know, very refine and consistent looking at to continuously communicate your brand through that. But I sometimes I would see, you know, the non runs looking creative like, you know, example, ticktock, or even just like...

...twitter. Right, I will use that. I saw, you know, I saw way to break out of like obviously, the show and to step different things of like water, the lifvent, things that we can say that we haven't, you know, really been able to say in, you know, are very strict formats, but we want to say and see that actually drive something, you know what I mean. So, yeah, it's like a constant production of both mixing them up and applying learnings of each type of creative to both. Yeah, I think what you cannot do is if you're going into performance branding, like that's when you know. You can't do poorly branded as and say, Hey, no, we're just trying this like a role, a pope approach, like no, that's just like badly made. Add the same way, you can't do a tick tock where you like put in like a hundred k budget and and produces like, you know, k beautifully produced tick tock video. It's like that's where you need to be rang on one side and you need the brand excellence on the other side, and both worlds can exist at the same time, which I find really interesting and and honestly, refreshing. I think there's a lot more opportunity for creatives, both on the agencies and on the brand side, to explore and experiment, but it can be a little overwhelming to like get started with that whole process if you don't have that culture in place right absolutely, yeah, but you have to start somewhere. You have to test a couple of things out. We see a lot of you know, super high and brands try it out right now, you know, and yeah, it's a little bit you know, scary and maybe emburrassing at the beginning, but once they build, you know, their own voice of that kind of like raw phil then you're like, oh wait, this brand is way closer to me than I thought it will be, and that's when you know. You go with like the more brand that you know looking. Yes, we are, you know, close to you, but also this is all our philosophy, this are our values, this is why we do and this is how you could be part of it. This has been such a great conversation and to our audience out there, if you're looking to get started and you need a partner in performance branding, you know you can always talk to Sharon. I believe it's Sharon at headlight DOT Coeo. Is that correct? Correct? Yes, email, email Sharon. Find her on Linkedin. She is a wonderful creative and if you need technology to scale your product catalog ads, that's when you would come to me and come to Seltra. We do have our creative automation for dynamic product ads right now. It's our newest addition to our suit of of solutions for marketers and advertisers. But I will end that ad break here and just say thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Sharon, for for coming on and, if you like, yeah with this was so amazing. If you liked what you heard, please give us five stars. Please share this episode and the podcast with your colleagues, always looking for new listeners and and thank you for being part of the community, and you'll hear from us in the next episode. You've been listening to brandside. If you like what you...

...heard, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about creative production automation, visit sultracom. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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