The Wild West of Marketing with Angelo Sasso: Are we back to basics?
Brand-Side
Brand-Side

Episode · 4 months ago

The Wild West of Marketing with Angelo Sasso: Are we back to basics?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The Wild West of marketing could be back. 

Does this mean an end to TikTok influencers and a new horizon of growth marketing strategies?

Today, I spoke with Angelo Sasso, SVP, Customer Engagement at Tidal, about his journey in growth marketing and the future of the profession. 

Join us as we discuss:

  • The marketing advice Angelo lives by 
  • Why growth marketing is successful and insights into its future
  • Common pitfalls growth teams fall into

Resources:

Find this interview and many more by subscribing to BRAND-SIDE on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or on our website.  

Welcome to brand side, a new podcast by Sultra where we interview marketing creative operations and design meters to find out what life is like in house, first agency side and how big creative ideas come to life at the world's best brands. This is brand side by Sultra. Another Day and another brand side episode. I'm very excited to welcome Angelo Sasso. He is the SVP customer engagement at title. Angelo is a data and analytics leader with a long career in leading marketing and strategy teams to drive revenue growth, optimized customer journeys and creating that loyalty that every band needs. Angela, I'm so happy to have you on the show. How are you doing today? Good. Thank you for having me. I'm enjoying the Great New York mother that we're finally getting, which seems like later on, later this year, an hour. So super happy to be here. Thank you. Yeah, we're getting that two days of spring until we're fast forwarding to the hellish summer that is New York City in the months of like may through September. But enough about the weather. I want to know all about you and your background. So I know that you found your early passion in customer research and then applying that data to drive growth. And I want to know how you went from an MBA all the way to leading customer engagement and title. What's your career journey like? Yeah, it's been a really interesting career. Right. I think when I talk about my career, the common theme that that there's between all the different jobs and industries I've worked in is really around how do we leverage data and customer insights to drive actionable decision making? Right, it's really not just about reporting, but it's about the processes, the culture, the infrastructure, all those things that you need to really facilitated insights action framework at a company. And a lot of my roles have flitted between marking, analytics at PNA, strategic planning and customer insights. Always been like a little bit of a mix and some purpose have done all of it and some I've done of not all of...

...it right, and a lot of what in my journey I've had it really started in my first job was being the first in a roll or being able having the luxury of creating kind of what the role the role is, or creating a team around me. That is brand new right and that's always giving me a great opportunity and built this muscle coming into an organization, assessing what the needs are of the organization, of figuring out how do you structure a team or a function to fill that need and fill that gap. So really kind of starting at the top. You know, I found in college that like like you mentioned, I really loved Customer Research to statistics and marketing plenty, even though I always hated math. Somehow when I was finding, you know, using math and stats and applying research to make, you know, real decisions in real life, not just doing an equation. Like you know, I like my Texas Instruments, calculator in high school. I really really love that right. There were something of doubt, almost like the gamification of seeing a data point and seeing then if you take action a B and see what happens from that. I always really loved that and I moved over. My first job out of school was in material handling, not very sexy, fortless things that move products around. It was a company called the rain incorporation. There are a city area of Toyota. They're located in upstate New York and I was essentially hired to create their first marketing analyst. That's why I'm like sticking with it a little bit in this conversation. From there, you know, I came back to New York City and I started a role getting images. It was a Yeel optimization role, which is funny because I think back at that role now and the role was really around having do different tasks with pricing, with offering, with like how, you know, we're displaying and merchandising items on the on the page for consumption. You know, it via subscription products and credits I'm getting. For those that are familiar, they sell stophotography, the Yal optimization rules, how to really make small change the driving fronts of runnue. It's almost a growth hacking role at the effect the distant ancestor of the growth, like a growth hacking type role and growth optimization type role. And you know that that was my first roll getting and over...

...time I moved over really to start leading more round subscription analytics and working closely with the GM of I stock photo and think stock to really understand our overall marketing funnel. How To, you know, what are the metrics that are the lovers that we can pull the growth of business and create a little bit more loyalty within our customer base marketing mix. Right. It was like really getting now into this world of like subscription, subscription business and creating that loyalty defroitely. You know, after that's leading hotels, the CML at the time, Shannon nap, who is now the CEO, an amazing, amazing market and an amazing leader. She came from a market express, right, and American Express is obviously a very, very day of Driving Company and leading hotels in the hospitality industry. You know, they they were using the to make decisions. That really she really wanted to really expand customer understanding. Right. For her, she's super customer centric, super data driven, and she wanted to really elevate her marketing team to better understand their customer, right, like this was a leading hotels. Is a luxury hotel brands, right, collection brand, and they're going after a very specific type of customers. So knowing who that customer is and what they want and, more importantly, things they don't care about was really important to her. So building out a practice around customer understanding was important, right, and they were. She was also managing a loyalty and subscription product as well. They have a law to program called leaders club, right. It's consumer loyalty program they're at the time was an annual fee. So for hers or at had e that leverage customer understanding and other marketing insights to drive and grow the subscription product. And over time there I expanded my role to do more enterprise analytics, right, because really cate what I was we were learning about the consumer. But expand it now into the BEB side of the business at leading hotels. And that brings me the title. I came in the title to build up their analytics team. Right again, it's one of those things where, like in all these roles, it's like hey, you know, we're at this point in growth where we need to evolve what we're doing to really help us billets practics. I came with how the build their analytics team, but after less than a year my job changed, right, I do now, which is this cutomer engagement analytics...

...team. And and what I'm doing here now is I'm overseeing our beat. A few subscription business really on the streaming side of the house, Right, leading acquisition, retention analytics members were paining. It's really the core team that is responsible for driving rubbie growth on the streaming side of the platform. So it's been a just what through a very long journey. But what I thought was thinking through my journey today and thinking about our conversation. You know, I kind of really feel that each job gave me something different that brings betwere I am today. Like you know, whether it's learning the in roads of segmentation and leveraging data, infrastruction decisions the very beginning and lover layering in testing and marketing, medium mix modeling, the layering in customer understanding and insights and Voice of the customer leading a telling. Every job added this new layer, which I think you know, has given me a really solid background. Yeah, and all that data was surely processed with a Texas instruments calculator. I'm I'm sorry, I had to had to throw that in. It's so funny. You know you're here. I'm I believe you're a native of Long Island. Is that correct? Actually, I'm a native of that and islands that it all was one of the islands. Yeah, it's your closed. The accident accident tracks. Yeah, you know, I between SOT. I grew up between Stan Allen Brooklyn. Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, I mean I'm you know, I'm from Finland, so hence the confusion between the islands. But I just found it so funny. You know, the Texas Instruments Reference Rings true to any millennial and any country or continent of the planet. But that's a whole different story and maybe maybe it's a nostalgia ticktock. Not going into that today. I love it. Yeah, but we love a little nostalgia. So a title. Talk to me a little bit about your role in your day to day what kind of projects do you work on? What do you oversee? What? What are the practicalities of your position? Yeah, so, as I mentioned earlier, I oversee these these five...

...different functions today, right, so we have growth, which is really responsible for you ract position. There's retension, which is responsible for lifecycle management and see arm communications. There's business analytics, which gives us the data that we need to be dated, Dream Marketing Team, and then there's payments, which is really important. Ry, a subscription business, global subscription business. Like you be surprised how payment methods differ across the world and how important you know, kind of a payment processes, not only in signing customers up and managing churn for customers and then members supporting experience, which is how we not only help our customers solve issues or actually bubble up somebody insight or frustrations. Customers have to the broad organization to make better, creative, better experience. Right. So I think about what I do in leading these teams, with these teams do. These teams are responsible for understanding your customers then figuring out how do we find and attract that customer to the platform, right through advert for through paid media and running advertising. Now other acquisition tactics. How, then, do we optimize that journey for when a customer season at clicks on an ad and now was going through the sign up process, how do we actually opt pies that journey to ensure that we don't lose the customer and the abandoned Cart Right, and we get them to actually sign up for the platform. Then we're responsible really that early engage when to making sure that the customer is listening, streaming, that we're educating them about the platform. Right, we're managing kind of early onboarding experience. From there at the customers we can learning. Now the team is also managing what right that their retention and making the customers loyal again. Never at we see a customer that risk and churning, them not churning and we're keeping them engage with us, right. And then, you know, we're also managing again, like all the steps in that journeying on this, on the support SIS to make sure we're capturing customers that are frustrating hopefully saving them, and on the game in sides to make sure that whole experience is seeing us from a transaction perspective. So the team really is, you know, essentially a massive map. Massive growth and performance marketing team would have analys component with it's how I like this? Well, it's...

...a pretty complex set of operations and and surely a team with a lot of different talent. I want to focus on the growth marketing aspect for of it all. So, in your opinion, what makes a growth marketing function successful? Yeah, so, I think you know, growth marketing is really a function that, to be successful, has to understand the balance of marking science right, like all of marketing like this, but growth marketing falls into a perilous kind of like way of being a failure if it over indexes too much. In one way or the other, unfortunately. Right. This is where you know having a really great creative team. We work with any growth marketing agency and light was a great creative team. Right, they come into important have a strong relationship being creative performance, in the performance team, of those are creating the beautiful assets, but then also those running the ads. You know, growth marketing is rooted though and following the data. Right. So understanding your audience, testing, testing, testing, always testing, from trying to find incremental gains are important to a successful team. Right. I really do believe that customer understanding is the foundation of a successful marketing team. Right, understanding who your poor customer is and not overextend yourself into too many messages and too many quotical things, right, like you're not trying to go after every type of customers every single channel with every type of value prop. You really understand who your pore customer is, what they care about, right, and you're creating creative for them, right, creating offers and a really nice messaging strategy for them, and you're on channels were they survive. So I understanding who that customer is is really, really important. Having that great test and learned custom, like I said, is important, but just as important to rats the consolidate and orderanize those learnings. You can test a bunch of stuff and you have no way to actually understand what you've tested in why of successful or not, then it's not really a you know, it's not really worthwhile testing just to make money and an efficiency. I also find it important,...

...and this so that I think that there are different opinions about from my view, I think it's very important to have a growth team that can think through long term planning. Obviously, right, we need to be thinking shahigically and like what we want this program to look like over a one, two, three year period, but one that is really scrapping and opportunistic, right, like marketing is about finding those incremental games, most pockets of growth and capitalizing on experiences or trends that are happening in the market. Right. So you want to have a growth marketing team that has a muscle that's built that allows them to really plan long term right, but also kicks it back and they can be operationally, can execute things quickly as things come up, right. I think that's really, really important. It also means being not afraid to try new things, like creating a culture that on the growth team that they are excited to test and try things in the scrappy way and they're not afraid of failure, because quite rarely a lot of growth, creative or growth. You know, campaigns don't perform well, right, and that's the name of the game is its finding those winners, I think, is that's two other things, although right, I think, you know, we really need to understand at the end of the day, go Max that aren't science mix like ass an advertising is creative. You're trying to very, very, very quickly. You know, would have very limited with people that are very limited tention. Stan basically get someone to stop what they're doing, look at your ad and then go through, sometimes a complicated journey to sign up. Right, and creative is the lifeblood of being able to accomplish that. So really understanding how creative plays, how the importance of creative and how creative plays into the overall strategy of getting someone to stop and try your product and really think about what you're trying to tell them ask them to do, is is really important. And I think finally, the last piece is having a team that understands and takes it back and really thinks about a full user journey, right, like if you have between the focus is just an advertising that's one tent of the story, right. It's really about like the whole journey from seeing...

...that add to clicking on that ad to going into wherever you're sending them to actually been going through the process to get your product, for us in our case, get their product on the phone, sign up, enter their payment information and actually start screaming right like, to me that's the actual acquisition journey. It's not just creating a person signing up, it's the whole journey from add like all the way through that first stream and really understanding what that journey looks like is so important and not losing side of events. You you really are trying to help as across that whole that whole whole journey. HMM. So then narrow down to title. What does your growth strategy look like? No, it's a great question. I mean, for us, our growth strategy begins with really understanding, you know, our CAC and our LTV and ensuring that we have at our I positive growth program from a CACT Ltd perspective, rights to taking like we really need to understand, then, who are most valuable customers are, to understand them, the confines that we're working with, the what are the to be of our most valuable customer and how efficient do we need to be to acquire that custable? For upset title, that is our highplus product, right, we find that these, this product really is made for the music Super Fan. These are intensely, intensely loyal music streamers, right. They you know, the highiplus product speaks to them. Right. It now a differentiates itself on sound quality, but it allows fans to support their favorite artists directive torough streaming. Right. So we have this product that not only is very, very, very differentiated from everything else in the market, right from value prop perspective, but it does have a higher, higher price, and the users themselves end up being more loyal users. are starting there, like understanding that those users are lives value and we this is a product that is not easy to market but has clear about clear differentiaty value helps from in a very, very busy space. is where we focus our strategy around. Is that Knight Plus Product. So, you know, I think from there, you know, after as we understand our customers,...

...we then think about a few different things to have a successful growth strategy here. Attending, right, it is testing on multiple, multiple channels, and that versuffying our channel next and not over indexing on more than on one or two particular channels. Right. We do layer in a strong creative testing program on top of that. That also includes thoughtful promotional strategy, right. So it's a combination of groth, creative messaging and promos and all these really we were intent towards highipluss. Again, that's really really important, and our creat past and programs involved very significantly over the past few years were constantly the point. New Test based on new concepts are a radio test winners. We're trying evergreen ads in new formats on different channels, right. So having that robust testing process that is a bit more trying to agnostic is important to us. And then I get like I mentioned earlier. We then think about, as part of our growth strategy, that whole experience, right, like landing page testing, sign up flows. Right, offer strategy with the what is happening when a user comes in being an offer and we make sure that they're the right customer and they're going to convert into the right product. Of We need to down sell them into the lower price product. There's things like that you think about as well to really create this more holistical strategy of title. It's interesting you mentioned the touch points beyond just advertising, because when we talk about creative testing, a lot of the times you only think about those campaigns, the ads, the designs, the messages, but it's actually much more complex and and sprawling, if you like. I really love that you, you guys are so diligent about creative testing and running this program but then what would you say are some of the full pause or pitfalls growth teams may fall into when they either start testing, they start scaling testing or they want to try something new? Yeah, I mean there's there's so many, I mean I for me, honestly, it's really about striking that right balance between testing too many things where you really can't even derive, like through their learnings, or testing to little where you can augue eggs into one like very kind of specific creative basket, so to speak. Of all your tasks is running, you...

...know, having the same results, good or bad, right. So that's a major faulk POW where you don't strike the right pounds between, you know, testing volume, I guess right, whether it's or and testing differentially differentiated testing, so to speak. It's a really important to get that right balance or too many tasks right you can't find commonality with themes and also become very, very become very inefficient and with's not enough testing right, you get into a place where, like, if one concept that you have just was a dud, well, now your whole test for the whole set of tests for the home month fall fail. I mean you might get a winner across the board, but that's you know, usually seven out of ten tests fail, right, so it's you're less likely to have all winners than you are to have all losers. Essentially, I think another big faull pond, I loved it to this earlier, is really thinking about the channels that you run on. It's very, very, very easy to fall into the pitfall of getting lazy and becoming very dependent on testing on one channel that's easy to test on, like facebook as an example, but it's a big potball. Creative testing to be catered to the platform and the audience. But again, you have to balance catering creative and testing to a platform, making sure at scalable. Right, it's not super niche. Right. So there's that piece as well, really thinking of channel. And I think the last thing, another pit call, is localization. You know, for us right like they're the pitfall you have is kind of the Goldilocks pitfall that I almost alluded to in the first piece, where you have to really strike the right balance between over complicating localization, where you have like single, very specific campaigns for very small regions which are very inefficient and hard to manage and operationalize, or you undercomplicated, where you're just like, let me run English ads all over the world and we'll see what works. And right, there's a way to have scalable, localized creative you know that. That involved asset swapping and message tweaking, but doesn't involve, you know, a hundred percent localized for a specific market and or zero percent, just one global add that works everywhere. So it's understanding that. And then once you've run these tests, you have the results,...

...how do you scale the insights? Yeah, I mean, look, I think successful tests, for my experience, they have two different lanes you can move in. I think lane one is around iteration of that and lane two is about new concepts that like build on that test. Right. So iteration for me would mean new formats, like I maybe a test that was with still, you move it to video, or you do different dimensions, or are you try different channels as an example, or you change post copy. Right, that's like I you can tweet. Kind of a winning a new concept to be understanding. You know, that comes from understand the theme of your winners. Right. So, like, as an example, like is sound quality a winning theme for US This Month? Okay, now let's think about what other campaigns we could run around. Hi Fi, sound quality. That build on some of the learnings from the past, but it's a different creative face than we were in prior right. Something else we do it winners, that winners do get localized more broadly. Right. That's a really, really important right, because I think again, localizing everything is cumbersome, but thinking about how you to take some of these winners and make them and localize them in a way that scalable. That's what we do with our with our winners, after we have them in certain tier one of markets. Right, and I think you know you when you eat, also about working with your creative team and making sure you're creating team is in lock step with you. Like I mentioned earlier, we're going to headlight and we essentially you know, and we have a great creative lead at title as well that helps oversee headlights work right, and I think heat they're involved in this testing process right, then we're not just telling them creak this stop and then the handover assets when we run these tasts like they fully own this process, essentially in partnership with our pay media leads and our media buyers, and ensuring that there is that ownership of these of this petit creative is so important, right, and I think that that's another place where we've been successful. What do you think is the the key behind your success in breaking down these that traditionally these have been...

...very Stilod, you know, media ors, creative, internal and external stakeholders. So what are your tips for better collaboration between brand and creative and agency teams? Yeah, I mean there's always this intrinsic tension between brand of performance marketing and every business and as every company, right, and I think there are ways to create and also obviously there's also difficulties and internal external relationships, right. So a lot of this for me. It's a few things. It's a setting there rules of the road and expectations were creative. Right, it is about education. Growth creative serves different purposes than brand creative. Right. However, you know it's that's, on the one hand, right. So in educating brand partners, Hey, we understand that this creative is different, but here's what we're using it. However, the flip side is, like growth marketers also be to understand that brand guidelines exist and need to be adhered to, right, and that the creative that we were putting in the world needs be worthy of the needs to be worthy of the brand. Right, like it really does. Member, we always have to remember and remind ourselves that a consumer does not understand the difference between a brandon and a growth are. They literally don't know. There's an adds to them. Right. So it's really, really important that both teams understand each other's guidelines, points of view right, and we really set those rules of were in that that engagement from a brand and growth performance side. On top of that, right, it's ensuring that the voice that you create, prophecies that incorporate these different points of views into creative reviews, into ideation. Right. So for us, like, I really think that, you know, brand marketers have such a keen eye for how to quickly represent the essence of the brand via visual identity, visual cues. Right. So, like, I want that point of view. I'm not afraid of of my brand counterparts reviewing and looking at growth freedom foreyed. I think it's wonderful, right. I think that that collaboration, be open to that collaboration, being open to the peback is really,...

...really, really important, right, and I think creating other processes around collaboration and documentation is also important here, right. Like, so, for us, we have a growth creative process that, a you know, incorporates kind of a brainstorming session which anyone's invited to come to submit a brief for. Right. We then create mop ups and we review them, right, as it's a growth team, but we also like send of them others in the organization. You get feedback, right, and then at that point we're the playing our creative and then we're sharing learnings, right, and we're getting people kind of amped up about what we're doing, and that process works for us. It works in creating collaboration, review lines and kind of allowing people to really kind of understand what we're working on. And I think when it comes to the third party relationship the agency, like they integrating to the process. Like I always like to treat an agency as a partner and as an extension of the team, right. So, like you know, when I'm working with Heen light and they're creative team, I tell my creative lead on growth, I'm like look, like always remember, make believe this is a team that just reports to you, like they imagining just worked how they they report to you. So, like, how would you manage these, these folks as your direct reports? What your expectations be? How would you infuse them into processes that you're creating? How do you creates given the game for them? Right, like how would you performance manage out of things aren't going along, right? So these are the types of that attitude and really kind of like remembering that the creative team is an extension of your team, right, and and your and integrating them into your processies. Like you what any other employee of the companies is, I think, really important to be successful kind of breaking down from those walls. Yeah, I love how you're looking at growth from a brand Lens. And recognizing that every impression at the end of the day, is a brandon impression. Online consumers are, you know, and a lot of brand still today. They have these beautiful upper funnel campaigns and then when you go to growth, it's the it's the plane, old DPA, you know, products on a white background, right, and that sort of dichotomy is still very much alive. We actually we just recently launched a product for that, for branding and automating the creation of templates for...

DPA campais in specifics, because we were seeing that a lot of these ECOM catalog driven, high volume performance marketers, they're still lacking that element of branding in lower funnel and that can often be something that completely transforms your row ass, your clicks, your results for that campaign. And so I I just love that you don't have this sort of performance and growth in its own little bucket and brand and design and creativity in another and you see how they actually play into together. Yes, and so I've got a couple more questions for you. First one being privacy, where, you know, web free and the ownership of your own data and increasing privacy regulations and apple coming in and ruining it all for APP marketers. And you know the drill. Where do you think growth marketing is headed as a practice? Yeah, it's kind of fun, I feel. I've had a lot of discussions about this and my view is almost like we're going to be going back to old school out of marketing methods. That it's likely because of right, it's so, I think. You know, as example, like we're going to have more reliance and old school marketing, measure measurement, right, the media, mixed modeling, right, like how did you hear about US sign up questions when you like? You know, ever, we use the sign up product that you ask you like how you then out about them? Right, we can't fully rely on third party attribution data anymore to see and what the networks are telling us, quite frankly, because you know, either they're going to overreport, underreport and misreports. We have to actually start taking a step back up understanding how our media makes impacting overall performance, like in the way we used to do it. Part all this quote, quote, amazing performance. And, by the way, we're over relying on on feedback from networks and overlying on kind of some of these third party data sets. Anyway, and I think it's about time that we're getting a little bit of a kick in the ASS, so to speak, to do this on our own and right. I also think like some old school like lead Gen tactics are going to kind of come back, right, like how do you start creating first party? Didn't leave...

...jen kind of with and leveraging that First Party Day to become more important, right than it used to be in the past. Like how do you open up your funnel a bit more, right, and then use kind of that open funnel where it's not, you know, full sign ups, maybe they're just leads to can caption, to remark, not retargeting, but like use your own channels to marketing users, whether it's you know me now, com in cass or something else. I think things like we're targeting will become more difficult, if not impossible, in the new world's right. So I think that, as will hyper targeting. Right. So these are things you can't rely on as much and I really think at the end of the day's perform about understanding. It's going to really be about understanding the efficiency of your overall spend and have an impact overall acquisition performance. Right. I think because of that the lines of team, brand and performance will blur even more. Right, if you really can't measure the efficiency of you performance marketing. You know, I've kind of like a super accurate level and you know you have brand dollars out in the world and you're looking at like kind of your overall acquisite meat marketing spend across all channels and maybe types of marketing and overall acquisition numbers. You're really now getting into a place where are trying to calibrate channel level mix and you know, the brand of performance piece comes a little bit more blurry if you're doing a lot this medium mix internally and not really relying on third party data as much. So these are some hypothesies I have. Actually, we'll on to hear. What are you think they when you you said you agree, but yeah, no, I've I've always said that, will always and always, but I've said of recently that I feel that the two thousand and ten to two thousand and twenty was almost like the wild west of programmatic and paid social and anything goes. And if you know how to play with the Algorithms and you know how to optimize and allocade your budgets, you would get insane performance on these social platforms and now that we're these regulations are coming in, it's almost like flipping the the power that these performance teams had on the brand side and more towards storytelling and branding and may making sure that...

...you differentiate with your story. So I also feel that we are going back to creative and as a former copywriter, that's what I would like to think as well, and in the midst of all of this technology. But yeah, I'm wondering. Are we go? Are we going back to the full on madman era? Is that it is? Our creative agence is going to rise again. is going to be cigars and Melly? Dream, you only dream. I mean, if brands are going to be needing more creative that means more business for the creative agency. So who knows, maybe we're it's either that or it's the consultancies coming in and swallowing everyone up. Yep, it's going to be. I'm actually excited to the next ten years break right, it is going to be. You're right, it wasn't the wild bust and now it's completely to be very, very different. Yeah, but I think it's also needed. I mean again, like we all get creeped out when we say like toothpaste once and now we're going to get target. I'm probably gonna get a cul gate APP right after this recording. Oh yeah, so it's a sure yeah, maybe it's for the better. I've got one more question for you, and this is, yeah, the best piece of marketing advice that you've ever received or read or what? Do you live by? Yeah, I mean it comes from my former CMO, a leading hotels, who is now the Sea Oh, Shannon APP. I mentioned her earlier. You know, her advice was to be customer centric. And what customer centricity actually means is doesn't mean doing everything for all your customers. I'm like, loving your customers, right, that that's not what it is. It actually means understanding who your core customer is and doing things that matter only to them, right, and being really, really, really good at the things that matter to them, but being bad at things that don't matter to them, and you're being bad at things, which is uncomfortable for anyone, and that that cares about. You. Know, performance is right, like you're being bad at things in service to being able to being able to be good at other things. Right, because if you try to do everything for every...

...type customer you have, you just are mediocre, basically, right. So I think that that customers centricity kind of piece of advice of like be customer centric, Angelo, like how do you prioritize and build experiences for that court customer and be okay at being bad at other things because that customer doesn't care about it? That, I think, is advice as followed me throughout my health career now at this point right. So it's really, really important advice and it's interesting because we're always talking about what we should be doing and then, you know, we also kind of need to think about what are the things that we own purpose, will leave out, will not focus on, will not do, and it's it is just as important, because you can only be brilliant in so many things. Angelo, this is being such a delight and so insightful for me tell our audience how people can connect with you if they want to get in touch. Sure, yeah, please. I have a Linkedin as everyone does, so I think if I'm on Linkedin, just search for Angelo Asso title. Well, I'll pop up or my personal ema. I don't mind stone streeting me a note. It's Angelo Dot Sasso. One at gmailcom well, I hope the audience doesn't flood you, but certainly get in touch if you have more questions. Thank you so much for listening to brand side. My name is Christine and you'll hear from US soon. You've been listening to brand side. If you like where you heard, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about creative production automation, is IT SULTRACOM? Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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